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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6249
Location: London
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andyp
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7436
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:41 pm |
Have you seen the quote from Matxin in the paper edition of CW this week, in relation to them signing this Tom Faiers chap?
He claims the team have a strong anti-doping policy. 
I genuinely lol'd.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7373
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:53 pm |
got to admit Saunier/Fuji are building up a hell of a doping palmares there..not to mention the boss has previous, though he's like most DSs I imagine...so picking on him is perhaps a little unfair?..hope fuji stay in and in the Pro Tour...were you in this "Faiers chap" you'd be hoping the team goes ahead, we'd all jump at the chance of a place in fuji if we were that age...even if they're dodgy as they seem to be...a step up
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andyp
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7436
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:55 pm |
How many positives is that in the past 18 months? Six? Mayo, Ricco, Peipoli, Serrano, Lobato and now Fernandez.
Once or twice is unfortunate, but 25% of your roster suggests a program. A badly administered program at that.
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Noodley
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 1621
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 5:58 pm |
David Millar 'must' have known about what SD were upto when he was there.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7373
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 6:59 pm |
| Noodley wrote: | | David Millar 'must' have known about what SD were upto when he was there. |
that's speculative...he may not have wanted to know...which is not good... but when one needs a job.
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Rodrego Hernandez
Joined: 25 Jun 2009
Posts: 16
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 7:29 pm |
Who knows that he didn't do something about it?
Looks like the UCI are targeting their riders so someone is on the ball for once.
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dennisn
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 4140
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 7:34 pm |
| andyp wrote: | How many positives is that in the past 18 months? Six? Mayo, Ricco, Peipoli, Serrano, Lobato and now Fernandez.
Once or twice is unfortunate, but 25% of your roster suggests a program. A badly administered program at that. |
Call me a skeptic or naive, if you must, but I just can't buy into the notion that there are "bad teams", so to speak. I'm sticking with the "bad individuals" idea. In this day and age it's just to risky for team members to let other members know about their "regimen"(or whatever you want to call it). I sort of put myself in their position and I sure as h*ll wouldn't be discussing my "illegal activities" with anyone other that my "supplier". Maybe in the not so distant past teams had "drug dealers" on the payroll, but these days.....????
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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6249
Location: London
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 7:46 pm |
So what would you say accounts for a huge number of positives from one team
They either
- Have a program
- Tell the riders to get "help" externally
- Have poor medical controls
- Hire riders they know are dodgy
- Just don't care
The environment of the team must be one where doping is not really frowned upon.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7373
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 8:26 pm |
| andyp wrote: | How many positives is that in the past 18 months? Six? Mayo, Ricco, Peipoli, Serrano, Lobato and now Fernandez.
Once or twice is unfortunate, but 25% of your roster suggests a program. A badly administered program at that. |
I think roughly only 12 of 26 riders from 2008 continued with the team in 2009, and for 2009 they have 24 riders...12 of whom are from the 2008 team...so it isn't 25% of the team + in 18 months, but nearer half of that approx......more like 13%..basically they've had 38 riders in the past 18 months and five +s? (Mayo was 2007)..5+ (not 10+) out of 38 riders. Doesn't not suggest a program but it is still debatable. Half the team is new each season so we tar them all?
Raúl Alarcón
- Raivis Belohvosciks
- José Alberto Benítez
- Rubens Bertogliati
- Iker Camaño
- David Cañada
- Eros Capecchi
- Ermanno Capelli
- Juanjo Cobo
- David de la Fuente
- Jesús Del Nero
- Arkaitz Durán
- Alberto Fernández
- Denis Flahaut
- Ángel ‘Litu’ Gómez
- J.A. Gómez Marchante
- Héctor González
- Beñat Intxausti
- Josep Jufré
- Rubén Lobato
- Javier Megías
- Manuele Mori
- Luciano Pagliarini
- Aurélien Passeron
- Leonardo Piepoli
- Riccardo Riccò
2009 Team
Paolo Bailetti (ITA)
José Alberto Benítez (ESP)
Iker Camaño (ESP)
David Cañada (ESP)
Eros Capecchi (ITA)
Ermanno Capelli (ITA)
Hilton Clarke (AUS)
Juan José Cobo (ESP)
David de la Fuente (ESP)
Jesús Del Nero (ESP)
Arkaitz Durán (ESP)
Alberto Fernández (ESP)
Héctor González (ESP)
Ángel Gómez (ESP)
Beñat Intxausti (ESP)
Josep Jufré (ESP) August 5,
Fredrik Kessiakoff (SWE)
Robert Kiserlovski (CRO)
Javier Mejías (ESP)
Fabrice Piemontesi (ITA)
Boris Shpilevsky (RUS)
Andrea Tonti (ITA)
Davide Viganò (ITA)
William Walker (AUS)
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dennisn
Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 4140
Location: Toledo, Ohio USA
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 8:39 pm |
| iainf72 wrote: | So what would you say accounts for a huge number of positives from one team
They either
- Have a program
- Tell the riders to get "help" externally
- Have poor medical controls
- Hire riders they know are dodgy
- Just don't care
The environment of the team must be one where doping is not really frowned upon. |
You could be right. Anything is possible. I just don't see the "conspiracy" aspect of all this.
Seems to be more of an individual(every man for himself) thing. I could be wrong, but
that's the way I look at it.
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andyp
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7436
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 9:35 pm |
Come on, the team is run by Mauro Gianetti! As far as team directors are concerned there's none dodgier. Does anyone seriously think he doesn't know what's going on? A man who, should we forget, nearly died at the roadside at the Tour of Romandie in 1998 after taking PFC;
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/18/sports/a-new-threat-in-blood-doping.html
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
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RichN95
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 1604
Location: Cardiff
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Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009 9:46 pm |
The ASO will be happy. Tour de France entry this year is pretty competative and I'm sure they'd like to exclude this no stars team again. They need a decent excuse that will hold up at the CAS again, due to the 'guaranteed entry' ProTour scheme that FS are a part of.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7373
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 12:40 am |
| andyp wrote: | Come on, the team is run by Mauro Gianetti! As far as team directors are concerned there's none dodgier. Does anyone seriously think he doesn't know what's going on? A man who, should we forget, nearly died at the roadside at the Tour of Romandie in 1998 after taking PFC;
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/18/sports/a-new-threat-in-blood-doping.html
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. |
..your 25% claim is out by half...you invented 4 + that didn't happen to fit your arguement as the numbers above show...... We all know Gianetti has previous...doesn't mean he is making all his riders do the same....
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jerry3571
Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 213
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 8:46 am |
Willly Voet was a soigneur for Festina. He used to administer the drugs to the riders and he got his orders from the Team Doc. He also got caught with a boot load of drugs. I'm sure the programme is mostly Team based as the Team Doc would be in charge of the doping programme. The top guys would then get special instructions from one of the "Mythical" Doctors (Procycling Manager reference  - Dr Fuentes maybe??) to further their progress.
I do laugh at some Teams doping programmes as if they test their riders for being dope free but I'm sure that it's more to do with testing to ensure they are not caught. A bit like checking yor breathe and smelling your armpits before heading out on a hot date.
There are Teams that get caught and Columbia and Astana who don't. The big budget Teams have the brains and know how to keep ahead of the system. Smaller Teams are trying to keep up on the limited resources and keep dropping the ball.
What I find amazing is that these small Teams are using EPO and still not winning much which makes me wonder what the top guys are using. I will admit that the cream rises to the top but it makes the mind boggle to what the lower divisions are using.
Uk riders used to stay at home so they could hold down a job and ride dope free instead of living the life a Continental Pro (doping problems). That bubble seems top have burst.
Cheers Jerry
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andyp
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7436
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 8:48 am |
| Dave_1 wrote: |
..your 25% claim is out by half...you invented 4 + that didn't happen to fit your arguement as the numbers above show...... We all know Gianetti has previous...doesn't mean he is making all his riders do the same.... |
I'm so sorry, my quick maths didn't quite work out to be exactly accurate. I just thought that having 6 riders out of a roster of 26 test positive was close to a quarter of the team.
If you really believe that last statement then you're very naive. It would be easy for Gianetti to change the culture in his team but he doesn't. Which begs the question, why not? My view is the one touched upon by Iain, namely that Gianetti doesn't care, he just wants wins at any cost. This approach is turning out to be self destructive now though, as the team is getting invited to less and less races due to their indifferent stance on doping.
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Blazing Saddles
Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1991
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 9:19 am |
How well is the passport working?
It's seems to be able to identify probable targets.
However, so far, they've all come up trumps for the same PED.
It's starting to resemble a red flag warning, whereby, only the stupid, or poor get caught.
Gianetti's bunch probably fall into both catagories.
Must be very reassuring for riders on better programmes to realise since they aren't using old EPO variants, they won't be caught.
Easy to see why DDLF and Cobo jumped ship. My only surprise is it took them so long.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7373
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:11 pm |
| andyp wrote: | | Dave_1 wrote: |
..your 25% claim is out by half...you invented 4 + that didn't happen to fit your arguement as the numbers above show...... We all know Gianetti has previous...doesn't mean he is making all his riders do the same.... |
I'm so sorry, my quick maths didn't quite work out to be exactly accurate. I just thought that having 6 riders out of a roster of 26 test positive was close to a quarter of the team.
If you really believe that last statement then you're very naive. It would be easy for Gianetti to change the culture in his team but he doesn't. Which begs the question, why not? My view is the one touched upon by Iain, namely that Gianetti doesn't care, he just wants wins at any cost. This approach is turning out to be self destructive now though, as the team is getting invited to less and less races due to their indifferent stance on doping. |
I don't think it's fair to call me naive for thinking that we should not tar all 38 riders as dopers cause of 5 cases of doping in the past 18 months. Festina even had some non dopers ...festina's doping seemed like it was happening in a team within the team.
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andyp
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7436
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:45 pm |
| Dave_1 wrote: |
I don't think it's fair to call me naive for thinking that we should not tar all 38 riders as dopers cause of 5 cases of doping in the past 18 months. Festina even had some non dopers ...festina's doping seemed like it was happening in a team within the team. |
It's well publicised that Festina had one non-doper in the team, Christophe Bassons. Everyone else signed up. At the trial, Thomas Davy stated under oath that four other teams that he was aware of (Banesto, Castorama, Francaise des Jeux and Telecom) ran team wide doping programs. There is evidence to suggest that other teams, i.e. Gewiss and Carrera in the 1990s, and USPS, Telekom and Cofidis in this decade, have also run team wide doping programs.
It's also clear from Puerto that Spanish teams ran team wide doping programs, i.e. both ONCE and Kelme were implicated.
That's why I think it's fair to suggest you might be naive in this case.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7373
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 5:40 pm |
| andyp wrote: | | Dave_1 wrote: |
I don't think it's fair to call me naive for thinking that we should not tar all 38 riders as dopers cause of 5 cases of doping in the past 18 months. Festina even had some non dopers ...festina's doping seemed like it was happening in a team within the team. |
It's well publicised that Festina had one non-doper in the team, Christophe Bassons. Everyone else signed up. At the trial, Thomas Davy stated under oath that four other teams that he was aware of (Banesto, Castorama, Francaise des Jeux and Telecom) ran team wide doping programs. There is evidence to suggest that other teams, i.e. Gewiss and Carrera in the 1990s, and USPS, Telekom and Cofidis in this decade, have also run team wide doping programs.
It's also clear from Puerto that Spanish teams ran team wide doping programs, i.e. both ONCE and Kelme were implicated.
That's why I think it's fair to suggest you might be naive in this case. |
So you think team wide doping-everyone at it within the team with DSs help? My apologies for giving some of them the benefit of the doubt...on the average some of 38 athletes will be honest.
From what we read Millar went to an Euskatel Dr for EPO, Ricco and Piepoli to their own Dr....these are examples of riders going outwith teams to dope......hardly team wide doping. Your theory leads to the conclusion that whole teams sit together and inject EPO or other stuff? I believe riders can opt out of doping if they wish, you don't....
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