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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6247
Location: London
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 Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 7:56 pm |
I was talking to someone about people who've come 4'th in the Tour and took a look to see how many of them moved up a position. Sastre, Ullrich and Evans did, and Perico as a previous winner, but a lot of guys seem to peak at 4'th.
I think under the right circumstances Wiggins could go a bit better than 4'th but the lessons from recent history is it's not that easy... All classy riders though.
90 Delgado
91 Mottet
92 Hampsten
93 Mejía
94 Leblanc
95 Jalabert
96 Dufaux
97 Olano
98 Rinero
99 Dufaux
00 Moreau
01 Kivilev
02 Botero
03 Hamilton
04 Ullrich
05 Mancebo
06 Evans
07 Sastre
08 Vandevelde * Or Menchov, depending if you move him up
09 Wiggins
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Top_Bhoy
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 1264
Location: Australia
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 4:37 am |
Not forgetting Robert Miller in 1984...no disgrace to be KoM and 4th in GC behind Fignon, Hinault and Lemond. A vintage year!!
I could be wrong, my instinct is that Wiggins will not improve on 4th and that subsequently will turn out to be his best ever placing.
Click here to view Top_Bhoys RC2: |
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7372
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 4:41 am |
| iainf72 wrote: | I was talking to someone about people who've come 4'th in the Tour and took a look to see how many of them moved up a position. Sastre, Ullrich and Evans did, and Perico as a previous winner, but a lot of guys seem to peak at 4'th.
I think under the right circumstances Wiggins could go a bit better than 4'th but the lessons from recent history is it's not that easy... All classy riders though.
90 Delgado
91 Mottet
92 Hampsten
93 Mejía
94 Leblanc
95 Jalabert
96 Dufaux
97 Olano
98 Rinero
99 Dufaux
00 Moreau
01 Kivilev
02 Botero
03 Hamilton
04 Ullrich
05 Mancebo
06 Evans
07 Sastre
08 Vandevelde * Or Menchov, depending if you move him up
09 Wiggins |
Robert Millar...mugged more or less by Delagdo and his gang at 85 Vuelta and 2nd at 1987 Giro...4th in the TDF means it is poss Wiggo will podium somewhere. When you look at Wiggins hanging on to lead group in the Giro 09 in the first two mountain stages...and then right up the front at the TDF...looks like his confidence has increased...the fitness jump between hanging on the back of a 20 man lead group at the Giro and leading in the top 5 in TDF mountains in certain stages is huge...IMO Wiggins self-belief must be higher...how else could he improve so much in a month assuming he is clean...which I reckon he is
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ShinyHelmut
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 135
Location:
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 7:46 am |
It certainly seems based on next year's tour route he's going to need to make another big step forward even to regain 4th place. He's going to need his climbing legs come July....
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spanielsson
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Manchester/High Peak
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 11:21 am |
This is not a pro Lance post, merely an observation:
It's interesting to see the contrast in the constant Tweets from Armstrong and Wiggins, Wiggins seems to be on a constant bender at the moment, Armstrong is training already. Is it so hard to focus on what is important to succeed considering how short a pro cyclists career can be?!
I personally don't think Wiggins track medals are worth anything compared to the results and respect earned by Robert Millar.
I hope Wiggins can improve and become a serious GC rider, but he has to up his game already.
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jocksyboy
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 52
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spanielsson
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 333
Location: Manchester/High Peak
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 12:18 pm |
| jocksyboy wrote: | don't forget Lance is past master at PR. so don't believe everything you read... 
Wiggins is technically not at his peak yet.
Having said that as ever it will be down to 3 weeks in July next year  |
I agree with everything you have said, but it can be a psychological disadvantage that makes or breaks someone.
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William H
Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 1
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 12:54 pm |
Wiggins has raced a lot more than Lance since the Tour
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Jez mon
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 1175
Location: Berkshire/Lufbra
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:15 pm |
Wiggins had a heard long season, he knows his body well and I doubt that the bender will have an impact come July, in fact he probably has to let off steam. Lance is someone who consistently tweets when he is training. Wiggins doesn't tweet constantly but that doesn't mean he isn't training...
The post does point out a definite problem, once you've come in 4th people see you as a guy who can go for GC and mark you and treat you as more of a threat. There is also more pressure. Moreau is someone who has been the great French hope but has never really done anything spectacular, lets hope that Brad doesnt become the British version.
You live and learn. At any rate, you live |
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frenchfighter
Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 1927
Location: London
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:04 pm |
Interesting observation.
'These are my opinions: I give them as things I believe, not as things to be believed.' Montaigne. |
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Echo et les Boniments
Joined: 01 Nov 2008
Posts: 51
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:07 pm |
Jez Mon, Moreau has never been the great French hope. He was a very good rider who happened to be the only GC French rider the local media could talk about. Nobody in France ever thought he was going to win the Tour and, well, that's nobody including Moreau.
The guy was almost 30 when he took 4th place in the Tour. Then he got himself a couple of nice contracts and made sure they included a bonus should he make the Tour Top 10 again. It kind of became a running gag in France, Moreau only aiming for the Top 10 from the very prologue, not even dreaming of the yellow jersey on the Champs-Elysées and mostly interested in faring better than the guys behind him in the classification. How do you say "gagne-petit" in English?
Wiggins is also 29 and came 4th in the Tour this year, but that's about the only things the two have in common. Wiggins isn't the great British hope,he is already a star. He's an olympic gold medalist and can be totally dedicated when he wants to (least we can say about him,)
He's brash and ambitious and he will cope with more pressure the way he copes with Roubaix cobbles: fearlessly.
Also he's part of a team with a great reputation (like, "Festina" isn't his middle name). Really, when Moreau came 4th nobody thought he could he'd become a Tour contender. As for Wiggins, mmm, the sky's still the limit.
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GroupOfOne MkII
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
Posts: 941
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Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009 1:16 pm |
| Echo et les Boniments wrote: | | Wiggins is also 29 and came 4th in the Tour this year, but that's about the only things the two have in common. |
Both rode for a team that got booted out of the Tour for doping? Sorry, couldn't resist that one 
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teagar
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 1450
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Posted Sun Nov 8, 2009 3:28 pm |
| spanielsson wrote: | This is not a pro Lance post, merely an observation:
It's interesting to see the contrast in the constant Tweets from Armstrong and Wiggins, Wiggins seems to be on a constant bender at the moment, Armstrong is training already. Is it so hard to focus on what is important to succeed considering how short a pro cyclists career can be?!
I personally don't think Wiggins track medals are worth anything compared to the results and respect earned by Robert Millar.
I hope Wiggins can improve and become a serious GC rider, but he has to up his game already. |
I think the Lance "I train more than everyone else", mantra is a bit of a myth.
Sure you don't want to do an Ulle and have start the training early enough so that you don't get ill etc, but doing more than anyone else just ends in over-training.
http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/091104_de_clercq_vanthourenhout
The big news in cyclo-cross in belgium this week. Vanthourenhout has been training too much!
Note: the above post is an opinion and not fact. It might be a lie. |
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intothe12
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 111
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Posted Mon Nov 9, 2009 9:47 am |
| iainf72 wrote: |
91 Mottet
92 Hampsten
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these guys would have no doubt moved up further if we had not have entered the dark ages.... pity, always thought mottet in the RMO jersey was a class rider, same with hampsten.
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nick hanson
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 1465
Location:
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Posted Mon Nov 9, 2009 7:16 pm |
| spanielsson wrote: | This is not a pro Lance post, merely an observation:
It's interesting to see the contrast in the constant Tweets from Armstrong and Wiggins, Wiggins seems to be on a constant bender at the moment, Armstrong is training already. Is it so hard to focus on what is important to succeed considering how short a pro cyclists career can be?!
I personally don't think Wiggins track medals are worth anything compared to the results and respect earned by Robert Millar.
I hope Wiggins can improve and become a serious GC rider, but he has to up his game already. |
Fully agree with you
I've said it before,& as much as I rate Wiggo,he needs to respect his body more
Pro or not,addictive behaviour like he seems to have (certainly re the drink) won't do his career any favours (or his health)
At the moment he'll probably pi** himself over comments like this,& be surrounded with plenty of 'yes' men,but in the long run,he needs to look at his family history (Sorry,& NOT trying to cause offence,but addictive personalities are often hereditary)
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Meds1962
Joined: 13 Sep 2004
Posts: 327
Location: Llangefni United Kingdom
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Posted Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:05 pm |
Went to a talk given by David Brailsford last night, he was saying Wiggins weight loss for the Tour was down to very specific diet that got his body fat down to about 4% but put his immune system right on the edge which could have caused problems.
Hopefully he can better 4th but brilliant as that performance was, I wonder what he can do to achieve that given that this sort of prep is pretty extreme. No doubt Andy Schleck and AC go to similar lengths to achive maximum power / weight ratio but they have that extra gear to drop the rest when it counts.
O na bawn i fel LA |
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jerry3571
Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 213
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:43 pm |
I'm sure Contador is real worried about Lance putting the miles in already. All Contador needs to do is do a few thousand miles; hit the beach for week then win a 3 week stage race. No worries!
-Jerry
Ps- I think time is the only answer with Wiggo. Head is one thing and his body is another. Takes both to win. Will be interesting watching though.
Wish he would try to win a few smaller stage races and then progress from there. Seems riders now are put in 3 week Tours without the proper build up. Needs to win a few events first.
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Dave_1
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7372
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Posted Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:01 pm |
| intothe12 wrote: | | iainf72 wrote: |
91 Mottet
92 Hampsten
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these guys would have no doubt moved up further if we had not have entered the dark ages.... pity, always thought mottet in the RMO jersey was a class rider, same with hampsten. |
Mottet had bad days at TDF 87-Ventoux,88, 89-stage Fignon won... never did Mottet have it to go three weeks without a bad day like Lemond, Fignon, Delgado. Not really got much to do with drugs IMO. Mottet came 4th in 1991 TDF a year after saying he had given up ever winning GC and was riding for stages in 1991-he'd had a bad 1990 TDF... much like Cunego has just said about his 2010 season.
Hampsten didn't repeat in the late 80s what he'd shown in 86, so Iain's postings are valid..at least the Hampsten example.
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andyp
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 7436
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:15 pm |
| Dave_1 wrote: |
Hampsten didn't repeat in the late 80s what he'd shown in 86, so Iain's postings are valid..at least the Hampsten example. |
*cough* 1988 Giro *cough*
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jerry3571
Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 213
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:07 pm |
I read Paul Kimmages book years and years ago and I think he said Mottet would hardly touch a Vitamin pill let alone anything worse ( I read this ages ago so facts may be a bit wonky). They said he could win 7-10 day races but the testosterone needed for a good 3 week Tour would be waning by the 2nd set of Mountains; Mottet, at this point, would start to struggle without using additional interventions.
Somewhat like Mr Wiggo; maybe a good sign for our chap being dope free as well at Mr Mottet!
A nice thought indeed.
-Jerry
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