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DonDaddyD
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 4149
Location: The middle distance
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 Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:14 pm |
| simple_salmon wrote: | | like I say, there are many junctions around the country where traffic turns left across cyclists |
I'm really not seeing that as any kind of point at all.
"There are examples all over the country, so it makes it OK" Is the type of argument, often political, that justifies inaction.
I cannot talk about or account for roads I haven't used, driven or ridden on. There are other variables that I cannot possibly know such as width of the road, visibilty of the road ahead, whether you're on an incline or decline etc. These road specific variables will affect the circumstances and outcomes of an encounter on those specific roads.
In the end I'm talking about a dangerous road I've ridden on that I now know to be dangerous because I've been on it. Thinking back I remember other cyclists commenting on having had incidents on that road as well as recalling reports of at least one cyclist having died on that bridge while in similar scenario to the one I found myself in.
What we need as cyclist to make our roads safer is to deal with each problem junction individually as per their specific saftey requirements and not blanket them as
"Well it's safe in Leicester so it should be fine in London"
Which your stance on the matter suggests.
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game |
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Sewinman
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 770
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:15 pm |
DDD - why are you going that route?
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simple_salmon
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Leicester
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:17 pm |
I understand you rargument - I agreed with your sugestions for the junction.
I do remain, however, interested in the reasons why the behaviour of cyclists and drivers in London would appear TO ME to result in more accidents than elsewhere or whether it's simply a result of numbers of people.
Just interested is all...
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SBezza
Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Posts: 504
Location: Aylesford, Kent
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:19 pm |
DDD, all roads are dangerous to some extent, you have to ride aware of the dangers and ride accordingly. Remember you are flesh and bone, and although you may feel you are in the right to do something, if a car etc is in the way you have to give way.
I won't say the junction shouldn't be changed, but it is no different from alot of other cycle lanes with regards to vehicles turning across you to enter another road.
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DonDaddyD
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 4149
Location: The middle distance
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:20 pm |
| Sewinman wrote: | | DDD - why are you going that route? |
Quicker, don't like going around Aldwych, most direct route I've found that doesn't involve Aldwych.
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game |
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Sewinman
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 770
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:25 pm |
| DonDaddyD wrote: | | Sewinman wrote: | | DDD - why are you going that route? |
Quicker, don't like going around Aldwych, most direct route I've found that doesn't involve Aldwych. |
Would be suprised if its quicker. Elephant and Castle is horrid too!
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DonDaddyD
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 4149
Location: The middle distance
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:28 pm |
| SBezza wrote: | DDD, all roads are dangerous to some extent, you have to ride aware of the dangers and ride accordingly. Remember you are flesh and bone, and although you may feel you are in the right to do something, if a car etc is in the way you have to give way.
I won't say the junction shouldn't be changed, but it is no different from alot of other cycle lanes with regards to vehicles turning across you to enter another road. |
I was ahead of the truck.
I noticed the truck via the angle of the wheels* first and then the indicator.
I was ahead of the truck. Slow moving bicycles ahead of me made the truck gain ground on me as we approached the turning, it begun turning left. I stopped to give way. Had I not been aware I would not be writing this. It doesn't take away from the fact that the road layout on that road is dangerous. Not all cyclists have the same riding ability dare I say a less experienced cyclist may have gone under.
With hindinsight, I could have waited behind the truck as I couldn't see it's indicator.
*When you go on a defensive driving course (the kind the police offer if you get a speeding fine) the instructor teaches you how to look under the car and not at the wheels but under them to ascertain the vehicles intention. I do this when I drive and on a bike.
Anyway. That's it folks I'm done on this one, for the time being.
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game |
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DonDaddyD
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 4149
Location: The middle distance
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:30 pm |
| Sewinman wrote: | | DonDaddyD wrote: | | Sewinman wrote: | | DDD - why are you going that route? |
Quicker, don't like going around Aldwych, most direct route I've found that doesn't involve Aldwych. |
Would be suprised if its quicker. Elephant and Castle is horrid too! |
I won't do Elephant and Castle unless I have to.
Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights as you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game |
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simple_salmon
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Leicester
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:31 pm |
The finger of responsibilty surely points at the behaviour of the truck driver in this case. If you were in front of him then he should have known where you were when he went past you and NOT made the turn until he was sure that you had passed again.
This is my point about behaviour of vehicle owners rather than junction layout at least partly being the cause of your near-miss.
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simple_salmon
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Leicester
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:33 pm |
| DonDaddyD wrote: | | Anyway. That's it folks I'm done on this one, for the time being. |
Fair enough; stay safe.
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boneyjoe
Joined: 29 Apr 2009
Posts: 174
Location: London, UK
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:50 pm |
Also had a near miss there a couple of years ago. White van (turning left without indicating) shaved rubber off my right shoe with his rear wheel, as I braked and fell into some traffic cones (I'd sensed him closing the gap at an alarming rate).
I always take particular care there now, trying to ensure I'm not directly opposite any vehicle as the traffic approaches the junction. Thanks for the reminder though.
Scott Scale 20 (for xc racing)
Gary Fisher HKEK (for commuting) |
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PinkPedal
Joined: 26 Sep 2008
Posts: 126
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:51 pm |
DDD I hate this junction with a passion too and the constant roadworks just off the bridge don't help either. Now I turn off just beore Clapham Comm past Battersea Park and onto the Embankment instead, it's a longer route but I enjoy it more and feel safer.
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Kurako
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 163
Location: Tooting
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 1:53 pm |
There's a lot of badly designed cycle lanes out there. This is just one of them. This sort of thing causes left hooks by encouraging cyclists to be on the far left and drivers don't think of them as part of the traffic.
The only way to stop the case DDD described is to position in front of the truck so he can't go past before turning. If that means ignoring the road layout then so be it.
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Monford22
Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 5
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:04 pm |
Hi DDD,
I completely agree with you on this junction. I was driving this route into work the other day and had a simular experience abeit from the other point of view. When the traffic is slow across the bridge it can take a long time for a large vehicle to fully perform the left hand turn without cutting into the bus lane. If the driver is not aware that there are cyclists present or the cyclists are not aware of the vehicles intentions there will be a nasty accident.
If my memory serves me correct (and the satellite image on google maps proves this) the northbound bus/cycle lane used to be a left turning only lane for the westbound embankment.
This bus/cycle lane must be a recent so called improvement, go figure.
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pinkbikini
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 98
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 2:11 pm |
Bizarrely this cycle lane has just moved the risk from one end of the bridge to the other. Originally the cycle lane ran along the middle of the road with a bus lane running on the inside, traffic lane on the outside. Cyclists had to cross the line of traffic at the beginning of the lane which was extremely hazardous, and they were prone to being sideswiped by fast moving buses. It was changed after a couple of fatalities, the one I remember (in about 2002) being a lady who was a prominent cycling safety campaigner and was killed by a bus whilst trying to get into the cycle lane.
I agree with some others - this junction is not significantly worse that many others. That's not saying it's well designed though...it isn't. Caution rules...
http://franzinilifecycle.blogspot.com/ |
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OldSkoolKona
Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 304
Location: Richmond, London
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Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009 7:49 pm |
| DonDaddyD wrote: |
Anyway. That's it folks I'm done on this one, for the time being. |
Did you contact TfL and/or LCC about the junction? Might be a good outlet for your posting energies today 
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Bassjunkieuk
Joined: 27 Sep 2007
Posts: 2529
Location: London
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:06 am |
| DonDaddyD wrote: | | Sewinman wrote: | | DonDaddyD wrote: | | Sewinman wrote: | | DDD - why are you going that route? |
Quicker, don't like going around Aldwych, most direct route I've found that doesn't involve Aldwych. |
Would be suprised if its quicker. Elephant and Castle is horrid too! |
I won't do Elephant and Castle unless I have to. |
**cough** EMBANKMENT **cough**
Cross at VB would be my suggestion and then you can avoid Aldwych
I've found Aldwych is great for practising cornering but only ever need to use it now for 2 sites!
As for that mess at BB like the other posters I'm of the belief that cycle lanes can encorage a false sense of security, I watched the other day as a cyclist in central Croydon used the rather pathetic U-Shaped one we have that takes you from a perfectly good (although sometimes busy) dual carriageway, forces you to make a very tricky turn considering that it's "kerbed" in and then deposits you into the TRAM tracks!! You'd then need to cross these, without dropping a tyre into the tracks before trying to rejoin the bus lane.
Its shown
here
It's rather distorted in that shot but I feel it perfectly illustrates how poor planning can lead to a false sense of security, IMHO it's much safer to stay on the carriageway for a few extra metres then join the bus lane just as a bus would do.
As for that BF one it doesn't seem any different to a normal cycle lane that runs past a left turn. Your always going to run the risk of being left hooked when riding past a junctions regardless of the presence of a small bit of green paint on the road!
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese from the trap
http://twitter.com/bassjunkieuk
Player of THE GAME
GIant SCR 3.0 - FCN 5 |
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prj45
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Posts: 1217
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 10:20 am |
| DonDaddyD wrote: | | I approached the Embankment end of the bridge heading towards Holborn. Lights were red so in the bus/come cycle lane (on the left) I filter along with the bikes infront of me to get past a truck, which was on my right. As I was passing the truck a moped stopped behind it had blocked my view of its back light so I couldn't see it indicating. As the lights go green, I'm going straight with the bikes and the lorry at the same time is going left (seriously this junction is stupid, its dangerous and it needs sorting). |
Never ever assume a lorry or car that's not indicating left is not going to turn left.
http://prj45.blogspot.com/ |
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Greg66
Joined: 04 Jul 2008
Posts: 2235
Location: The Embankment
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Posted Sat Nov 7, 2009 10:53 am |
DDD - I told you - get onto the Embankment at BB/AB/CB/VB and you've got a turn off at Temple tube that gets you to Ch Lane without going near the Aldwych.
FWIW, I find the Embankment pretty safe. There are one or two grey spots I suppose, but there's nothing that approaches Blackfriars Bridge for danger
FCN Zero. Like ice. Look for the red and black bag disappearing over the horizon
Bike1 Bike2 |
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