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stfc1
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 130
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 Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:33 pm |
| mfin wrote: | Here's one for musicians.
The preamble here is that whilst Nirvana's song-writing is up-there, there's not a lot of skill in it guitar-wise... I wouldn't say it could be made better for what it is, but anyone who can play a guitar for 6 months and has got barre chords sussed could play most Nirvana songs.
Thing is Nirvana was a turning point, after that the biggest new guitar band was Oasis, and there's no skill in that either (again, same logic applies to not changing it).
A generation of kids grew up with this music to love and aspire too and those kids didn't seem to want to learn more than what they were listening too, and hence now there aren't many bands with much guitar skill in them. There's exceptions of course, such as Muse... and hundreds of exceptions when you step outside the big-selling artists into Metal, Jazz, whatever....
DJs now mean even less kids pick up guitars, and the musical legacy of kids wanting to be like the Libertines or The Arctic Monkeys or the current crop doesn't hold out much change.
Before Nirvana even the metal scene behind it had a fair amount of skill, good songwriters like Guns n Roses knew how to play and construct a song. Plus, going back a little further loads of prog rock virtuosity was the thing. Like the punk thing in the 70s being a 'just pick up and play', I think Nirvana and other bands at that time had some of this effect on non-vituosity but without the revolution that went with it.
Bands do what bands do, things move in circles, I wonder when there'll be a return to some skilled and brilliant guitar bands in the mainstream not just in the lesser genres, I expect it could be a while, particularly with the current music trends.
(oh, and an afterthought... the last guitar innovator IMO to appear was Tom Morello) |
Or:
Nirvana (and grunge) saved guitar music from its own worst excesses and Kurt Cobain is the reason most people under the age of 35 picked up the instrument in the first place. It all depends on your perspective 
Check out Biffy Clyro for interesting and inventive guitar music clearly inspired by Nirvana...
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spanielsson
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 401
Location: Manchester/High Peak
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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6722
Location: London
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:13 pm |
Big Rollins fan - Seen him doing talking gigs loads of times but he's completely wrong in this case.
Seen DJ Shadow play a few times and he's way better than most rawk bands.
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spanielsson
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 401
Location: Manchester/High Peak
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:25 pm |
I see classes of 12 year old kids using Cubase everyday making DJ FU-FU-FU-FUKCHEAD music day in day out.
I've seen DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Orbital, Underworld, The Prodigy blah blah blah... None of it even comes close to seeing bands like Jane's Addiction, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, Vernon Reid or any other real musician who has really had to work for their art.
Who will still be played, considered as inspiration or influential in 40-50 years time? Liam Howlett or Eddy Van Halen?!
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Mettan
Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 1509
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:33 pm |
For me, Nirvana were irrelevant, almost laughable - in terms of American Indie music from that era, The Pixies are far more gifted both in terms of song-writing, compositions and musicality - The Pixies, in a sense, are not too far off from The Smiths in creating a large canon of great indie-songs (that's how good The Pixies were.....) - and The Smiths are not that far off from The Beatles (although I prefer The Smiths over The Beatles - far more creative in terms of harmony and possibly melody). The Smiths sound-world is far more lush, less-repetitive, more creative and ultimately richer (than The Beatles).
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Mettan
Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 1509
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:47 pm |
| spanielsson wrote: | | Eddy Van Halen?! |
Found it funny in the past when playing Jump whilst driving through town - initially, almost smirks of derision from people that someone's playing an 80's metal song when they should have dance music banging out  - and then...... a strange look on their faces ...... as if to say........ actually.... this stuff sounds fookin awesome 
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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6722
Location: London
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:59 pm |
| spanielsson wrote: |
I've seen DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Orbital, Underworld, The Prodigy blah blah blah... None of it even comes close to seeing bands like Jane's Addiction, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, Vernon Reid or any other real musician who has really had to work for their art.
! |
I've seen Janes live and they were great. Shadow is a musician wether Rollins likes it or not. He may work with samples but at the end of the day, whoever produces Rollins Band records does exactly the same in Pro Tools.
I remember when Endtroducing came out, Shadow is an instore somewhere in California and asked people to bring records along. So obviously people took obscure records and he managed to mix a Muppets record into his set.
In 50 years time, who will be more important, Aphex Twin or Van Halen (clue, it'll be Aphex) I also expect Endtroducing with be listed in the best albums listed for decades to come.
Prodigy et al, yeah, take it or leave it. But at the same time the vast majority of rock music is a pile of backside.
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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6722
Location: London
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:03 pm |
| Mettan wrote: | | For me, Nirvana were irrelevant, almost laughable - in terms of American Indie music from that era, The Pixies are far more gifted both in terms of song-writing, compositions and musicality |
Have I ever mentioned I know one of the engineers on Trompe Le Monde?
I think Cobain had a better gift for a pop song than Black Francis ever did. I find some of Nirvana's tracks amazing but a lot of it does nothing for me.
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andy162
Joined: 20 Jul 2009
Posts: 298
Location: East Yorkshire.
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:26 pm |
Kurt Cobain was a skilled guitarist, no doubt. He wasn't technically brilliant as a metal-head shred meister but had a knack with off kilter timing, non standard tuning & using drones & such. He also used a baritone guitar now and again half way 'tween a bass & a normal guitar. Also used an e-bow to good effect.
Granted, get the tabs & tuning off the net & a reasonably proficient player'll have them licked.... But it's the thinking up part where the skill lies.
Look at Wilco Johnson, dead easy riffs technically, but an ace guitarist.
Today if you are looking for "skilled" playing there's Jack White, Josh Homme, Matt Bellamy, Yorke/Greenwood( have a listen to Jigsaw Falls into Place...sounds easy enough but a bugger to do). Massive Attack's Angelo Brushini is great( he was lead geetar in The Blue Aeroplanes, check out Beatsongs. Fantastic guitar music). Bernard Butler too. Dudes from Interlol are good also.
I was in bands for years & one or 2 "did alright", I guess I am a decent strummist but personally I'm all for subtle. Skilled yes, flashy no.
I did have an overdrive pedal called " f@ck off" tho. Blow roofs off that bugger would!
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Escargot
Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 314
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:11 pm |
| spanielsson wrote: | I see classes of 12 year old kids using Cubase everyday making DJ FU-FU-FU-FUKCHEAD music day in day out.
I've seen DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Orbital, Underworld, The Prodigy blah blah blah... None of it even comes close to seeing bands like Jane's Addiction, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, Vernon Reid or any other real musician who has really had to work for their art.
Who will still be played, considered as inspiration or influential in 40-50 years time? Liam Howlett or Eddy Van Halen?! |
Sadly you're comparing things that are fundamentally impossible to compare. You can easily say the same thing about the bands you've listed as I quite like classical. Even the most basic chamber compositions with a few strings make Jimmy Page look like an infant playing guitar hero but that means nothing. Take it to orchestral level and there's no comparison with anything when you consider the complexity of arranging the various sections of an orchestra. In this respect will people still find Page/Plant an inspiration 300 years from now. Sadly not.
Sadly though I think you must be in some time warp as people like Juan Atikins/Kevin Saunderson/Derrick May have been inspiring people for years (how's 30 years for you ?)
Grandmaster Flash started out about 40 years ago and has inspired almost every modern DJ alive and along with his contemporaries brought Hip Hop to the nation. Like it or not Hip Hop has been massive and also carries with it break dancing and graff but I guess these aint real dancing or art either 
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reluctant
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 153
Location: Bracknell
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:34 pm |
Trompe le Monde is my fave Pixies album.Weren't they great?
I can still remember where and when i first heard Nirvana though - i was transfixed and overjoyed by the fabulous noise of it all. Kinda metal, but kinda better than that, bit like the DKs were punk, but better.
Anyway, I'm no guitar player, and know nothing of these things, but I know how it makes me feel - and it's good.
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bompington
Joined: 22 May 2008
Posts: 717
Location: Dundee
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Posted Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:15 pm |
Back in the 80s, when I first picked up a guitar (left handed just like Cobain & Hendrix of course) it was a pretty counter-cultural thing to do.
Now you see thousands of kids walking around with guitars, and my guess is that, whether you like their music or rate it "technically" or not, Nirvana and Oasis were the top motivators behind that.
OK, so a lot of the kids won't get much further than strumming the intro to wonderwall, but some will, and if they (that should be we) don't, so what?
It's got to be better that kids are into the idea that you can make your own music, whether with guitar, decks or didgeridoo, rather than just be passive consumers. I am a staggeringly mediocre guitarist, after 20 odd years of practising I still can't make the Money for Nothing riff sound quite right. It bugs me that I can't play better, but really I don't care, I love doing it anyway.
It tickles me that I'm doing the same thing as Knopfler and Clapton, just not quite as good - kind of the same as on the bike: there's only 2 real differences between Merckx, LA and me - I've only ever taken performance depressing drugs, and they're just a bit faster than me.
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dmclite
Joined: 14 Dec 2008
Posts: 2143
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mattward1979
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
Posts: 204
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:14 am |
Smells like teen spirit started the Grunge revolutiion...
Regardless of guitar skills or solos, Nirvana were the spark that started a brush fire that swept the globe, and allowed the surfacing of MANY amazing bands that, yes, have amazing guitarists and song writers....
Im 30 now, so as a Teen I was right there for the whole grunge scene, start to finish and saw so many awesome bands around London that I irreperably damaged my hearing... (that was by falling asleep drunk leaning up against a speaker stack at a Slayer gig.. )
Although the bands that prospered at this time would have undoubtedly had fame and fortune, I can happily believe that Nirvana was the Lube that allowed them to slip in unfettered!
Screaming trees,
Mudhoney,
Green River,
Mother Love Bone,
Pearl Jam,
Soundgarden,
Temple of the Dog
Alice in Chains.....
Stone temple Pilots
Fair enough the edges are blurred with some of the bands above, but each came through as a result of Nirvana's influence to a greater or lesser degree, and each influenced something else major in the music world......
The death of Andrew wood = Temple of the Dog
RATM + Chris Cornell = Audioslave
Stone temple pilots = Scott Weiland fronting Velvet Revolver
Pearl Jam = Much wider fame and appeal for Neil Young after MTV VMA performance..
And there is so much more but I'd end up publishing a book on the Seattle scene if I dont stop =P
But think of this....
The Harry Potter books were succesful because they had an unmistakeable appeal to a Very wide audience, and entertained without effort. They are easy to read, easy to understand with characters you relate to immediately... These books have improved the literacy of children AND adults by being accessable, and often inspiring people to read more, rather than sit in front of an Xbox 5 hours a day...
Nirvana are the Harry potter books of the Guitar rock music world....
Kids and adults pick up a guitar and strum away to a few Nirvana tracks because they are easy and accessable, giving a near immediate feeling of success and accomplishment. This might then inspire them to move on to more challenging tracks, and even write their own music! How can that EVER be seen as a bad thing....
Sorry for the Epic post, but to finish up, here is a Vid of someone born out of the grunge era, that followed the above path... Not 100% amazing I know, but certainly not an embarrasment to guitarists, and definitely moved on from the strummings of Smells like teen spirit!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/mattyward1979#p/a/u/1/xfmYphe_eLs
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volvine
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 364
Location: Lancashire England
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:40 am |
| Quote: | Here's one for musicians.
The preamble here is that whilst Nirvana's song-writing is up-there, there's not a lot of skill in it guitar-wise... I wouldn't say it could be made better for what it is, but anyone who can play a guitar for 6 months and has got barre chords sussed could play most Nirvana songs.
Thing is Nirvana was a turning point, after that the biggest new guitar band was Oasis, and there's no skill in that either (again, same logic applies to not changing it).
A generation of kids grew up with this music to love and aspire too and those kids didn't seem to want to learn more than what they were listening too, and hence now there aren't many bands with much guitar skill in them. There's exceptions of course, such as Muse... and hundreds of exceptions when you step outside the big-selling artists into Metal, Jazz, whatever....
DJs now mean even less kids pick up guitars, and the musical legacy of kids wanting to be like the Libertines or The Arctic Monkeys or the current crop doesn't hold out much change.
Before Nirvana even the metal scene behind it had a fair amount of skill, good songwriters like Guns n Roses knew how to play and construct a song. Plus, going back a little further loads of prog rock virtuosity was the thing. Like the punk thing in the 70s being a 'just pick up and play', I think Nirvana and other bands at that time had some of this effect on non-vituosity but without the revolution that went with it.
Bands do what bands do, things move in circles, I wonder when there'll be a return to some skilled and brilliant guitar bands in the mainstream not just in the lesser genres, I expect it could be a while, particularly with the current music trends.
(oh, and an afterthought... the last guitar innovator IMO to appear was Tom Morello)
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think someone hit on it earlier it is somtimes the simplist riff's that are the most catchy and therfore most popular the biggest rock band of them all and my favorite band AC/DC have had a 35 year career by playing catchy simple kick ass riffs to stamp your feet too this does not mean Angus Young or his brother Malcolm are poor guitar players on the contrary they can smash it with the best of them but it is not want people want to hear 5 minute solo's every song it don't work.
Slash's most famous guitar riff sweet child of mine was him just pissing around warming up he didn't even want the band to use it and you cannot class Slash as a poor guitarist.
as for kids picking up guitars millions have made the first step by playing guitar hero love it or hate it if 1 kid in a 100 picks up a real guitar from playing such games that has to be good and further more all the guitar gods/legends are on these games for the kids to aspire too.
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symo
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 524
Location: Devon - Would move to London but is now Devon fast. It's the hills you know.
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:25 am |
My word. The old “things were better in the good old days” argument on a subject. 80’s metal bands like GnR and Motley Crue and Poison et al whilst being technically good were just an excuse to stick a guitar solo in. As was most prog rock. Now don’t get me wrong I love Iron Maiden (still looking for a Live after Death cycling top; anyone), so this is not a rant against guitar music.
So Muse – nah overblown bombastic pomp that should be kicked back to the 70’s with the way it is so up it’s own ars*; as proof look at the music journalists pontificating over the genius of it. Also true for Radiohead or any other lack lustre UK guitar band (of course Spunge being an exception). Also in 10 years time I think I will still hear Nirvana on the radio but I suspect a lot less Muse et al. The genius of good song writing is not in technical ability but in a hook; and Nirvana had a boatload of those.
As for technical ability having died out what about Tom Morello? He is still the most innovative guitar player on the planet. He simply took the concept of guitar playing and the guitar as a rhythm instrument to an insane level.
Not about the guitar solo but how the guitar should serve the song best.
PS I own technics 1210’s mk5 CDJ100mk2 and Native instruments Traktor Scratch Pro. I also own an Ovation Electro Acoustic, a PRS Custom 24 (10 top for those in the know) and a battered old Hohner JT60 (which I believe sounds better than the PRS).
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stfc1
Joined: 09 Sep 2008
Posts: 130
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:59 am |
| symo wrote: | My word. The old “things were better in the good old days” argument on a subject. 80’s metal bands like GnR and Motley Crue and Poison et al whilst being technically good were just an excuse to stick a guitar solo in. As was most prog rock. Now don’t get me wrong I love Iron Maiden (still looking for a Live after Death cycling top; anyone), so this is not a rant against guitar music.
So Muse – nah overblown bombastic pomp that should be kicked back to the 70’s with the way it is so up it’s own ars*; as proof look at the music journalists pontificating over the genius of it. Also true for Radiohead or any other lack lustre UK guitar band (of course Spunge being an exception). Also in 10 years time I think I will still hear Nirvana on the radio but I suspect a lot less Muse et al. The genius of good song writing is not in technical ability but in a hook; and Nirvana had a boatload of those.
As for technical ability having died out what about Tom Morello? He is still the most innovative guitar player on the planet. He simply took the concept of guitar playing and the guitar as a rhythm instrument to an insane level.
Not about the guitar solo but how the guitar should serve the song best.
PS I own technics 1210’s mk5 CDJ100mk2 and Native instruments Traktor Scratch Pro. I also own an Ovation Electro Acoustic, a PRS Custom 24 (10 top for those in the know) and a battered old Hohner JT60 (which I believe sounds better than the PRS). |
Poison were not "technically good". In fact, CC Deville is an appalling guitarist. A small point, but one I felt I hand to make
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mfin
Joined: 11 Jul 2007
Posts: 559
Location: on t'internet
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volvine
Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 364
Location: Lancashire England
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iainf72
Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 6722
Location: London
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:23 pm |
What about Buckethead?
Real talent will probably never be mainstream. Like Jello said, the dumbest buy the mostest.
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