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BentMikey
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 4761
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 Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:13 pm |
...hence the caveat in an earlier post of mine about queues ahead, which tend to have much the same effect as sitting behind the car in front across the junction.
Cycling that sort of weekly mileage, then I should imagine you do come across some suitable junctions for the test. We may not have that different a commute, given that I live in Biggin Hill and commute to the West End.
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Specialized Needs
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 293
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:22 pm |
| Porgy wrote: | | I'd love to be able to take 2 or 3 lanes at once, alas it is sadly, physically impossible. |
Eat more? 
BM & HH, as far as I recall both of you commute in a similar area of London. You may have junctions you both use - perhaps an opportunity to try out or discuss specific different approaches?
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Kurako
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 222
Location: Tooting
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:31 pm |
One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best.
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MatHammond
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 701
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:41 pm |
| Kurako wrote: | One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best. |
I know that junction well. I like 1 the best - provided you time it right e.g. nobody crossing and no traffic coming from Kennington Road. If you can get to the front of the ASL though, just keep to the right two lanes and its fine. The problems occur for me when you approach on a green light and you get stuck in the bus lane, needing to cross two lanes of flowing traffic - usually OK but occasionally a bit scary!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N08/3866214896/in/photostream/ |
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Porgy
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 2796
Location: the foothills of the North Downs
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:59 pm |
| MatHammond wrote: | | Kurako wrote: | One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best. |
I know that junction well. I like 1 the best - provided you time it right e.g. nobody crossing and no traffic coming from Kennington Road. If you can get to the front of the ASL though, just keep to the right two lanes and its fine. The problems occur for me when you approach on a green light and you get stuck in the bus lane, needing to cross two lanes of flowing traffic - usually OK but occasionally a bit scary! |
I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok.
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane.
~ Philip K. Dick
http://porgythecat.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/ilovechomsky
http://www.arrestblair.org/ |
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Kurako
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 222
Location: Tooting
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:05 pm |
| Porgy wrote: | | MatHammond wrote: | | Kurako wrote: | One of the worst stretches for me is the A23 just by Kennington Park. It's wide enough for 4 lanes at the end where it splits and 2 lanes go towards Brixton and 2 go towards Clapham. There is bus lane on the left and an ASL.
Since I go towards Clapham I need to be in lane 3 which means crossing over at least one lane of fast moving Brixton traffic and sometimes 2 if its late enough and cars/ vans/ motorcycles/ etc veer in and out of the bus lane jockeying for position. They're all p'd off because the lights take a while to change and its late and they want to get home. Blah de blah.
The options are:
1. RLJ. You can get into a gap between traffic as the lights change. Nice clear road with no-one passing. OK if you time it right but if not you've still got the mad rush of p'd off motorists to cope with.
2. Filter to the front and stop in the ASL. Right in the thick of things when the lights change. Not fun especially since the Brixton traffic is mostly populated by complete nutters.
3. Find a nice gap in lane 3 suitably near the front so that when the lights change you can get up to speed and stay in the lane you need. So long as you can stay reasonably close to the car in front nobody thinks you're holding them up. In any case, the jockeying of people changing between lanes 2 and 3 means all but the cars in front won't be making much progress.
I like 3 best. |
I know that junction well. I like 1 the best - provided you time it right e.g. nobody crossing and no traffic coming from Kennington Road. If you can get to the front of the ASL though, just keep to the right two lanes and its fine. The problems occur for me when you approach on a green light and you get stuck in the bus lane, needing to cross two lanes of flowing traffic - usually OK but occasionally a bit scary! |
I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok. |
I'm not particularly worried. I've been going that way for years. I just don't like putting myself in the way of nutters. Just because a car shouldn't stuff you up the rear end doesn't mean they won't. The only person on the road who's actions I can control are my own. The best you can hope for is to limit the risk of someone else taking you out. One of the best ways is not to be in front when folk go tearing off from lights.
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MatHammond
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 701
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BentMikey
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 4761
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:30 pm |
| Porgy wrote: | | I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok. |
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you.
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Headhuunter
Joined: 28 Nov 2008
Posts: 1643
Location: SE London
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:36 pm |
| BentMikey wrote: | ...hence the caveat in an earlier post of mine about queues ahead, which tend to have much the same effect as sitting behind the car in front across the junction.
Cycling that sort of weekly mileage, then I should imagine you do come across some suitable junctions for the test. We may not have that different a commute, given that I live in Biggin Hill and commute to the West End. |
I don't really understand what you're suggesting then, I thought you meant that instead of filtering right to the front I should try to wedge myself in, taking the lane a few cars back from the front of the queue of traffic... TBH I don't have any problems with my current method so I don;t really have any motivation to try anything else. Making sure I get to the front works for me, especially if the ASL box is not blocked by some imbecile on a motorbike and if it is I shunt past and get in front anyway. Job done - no problems.
We may have the same commute - I head along Old Kent Rd, cross the river at London Bridge, through the City and end at Chancery Lane. I think Porgy lives in Lewisham so probably a sinmilar commute too....
Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem |
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MatHammond
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 701
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:38 pm |
| BentMikey wrote: | | Porgy wrote: | | I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok. |
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you. |
Please explain why it is safer to ignore the vast expanse of open road ahead, with an opportunity to cycle along at your leisure, with no interference from traffic (other than a few other bikes perhaps) but instead to sit in exhaust fumes, waiting for the lights to change and have a load of impatient and aggressive cars driving up your backside. I mean seriously, putting strict compliance with the law to one side from a health and safety perspective this is nonsense isn't it?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N08/3866214896/in/photostream/ |
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BentMikey
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 4761
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:52 pm |
Sort of right - I'm saying you should take the lane no matter where you position yourself in the queue. Also that following one or more vehicles across the junction is generally rather safer than being the first one across, with the exception that a big queue of traffic on the other side has much the same effect in taming the crazy overtakes as does following another vehicle across the junction.
There should be plenty of freer flowing junctions on your commute where this approach will work well. I don't use quite the same roads (A21/A2/A202) but have gone along there often enough to know it reasonably.
I love to try new things and learn new skills. The more I learn the more I'm realising how complex it all is and how much I don't know.
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Kurako
Joined: 10 Sep 2009
Posts: 222
Location: Tooting
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:54 pm |
| MatHammond wrote: | | BentMikey wrote: | | Porgy wrote: | | I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok. |
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you. |
Please explain why it is safer to ignore the vast expanse of open road ahead, with an opportunity to cycle along at your leisure, with no interference from traffic (other than a few other bikes perhaps) but instead to sit in exhaust fumes, waiting for the lights to change and have a load of impatient and aggressive cars driving up your backside. I mean seriously, putting strict compliance with the law to one side from a health and safety perspective this is nonsense isn't it? |
At the risk of the thread being hijacked by weadmire...
If you can get to the other end of the drag strip before any cars catch up then obviously that's safest. The problem is that you don't have control over when the lights change so it may not give you much of an advantage.
I prefer to position myself so I don't have to change lanes which is one less thing to worry about. Also traffic moves in waves and the line will stretch out as cars move of. So even if you start between lanes a gap will open up. Slot in and keep up with the car in front and everything is hunky dory.
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BentMikey
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 4761
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:55 pm |
As Kurako says - the further ahead you get, the bigger the velocity differential when the cars do catch you.
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MatHammond
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 701
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BentMikey
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 4761
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EC2boy
Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Posts: 9
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:15 pm |
I have just started cycling that stretch down to Clapham about three times a week and still haven't worked out my strategy for dealing with it. I'm not too worried about where I end up in the queue if the lights are red but I'm still trying to work out how best to actually approach lane three in the first place. I head down from Elephant. I'm fast but not on a racer, so not mega fast. I come alongside the park to the lights at Oval tube station junction. Is that the set of lights you're referring to or the next set along? And I've tried staying in the bus lane, then moving to lane 3. I've tried sprinting off in lane 3. None of them really works for me yet but, as I say, I'm really still getting used to that junction. I'm also trying to work out the best way to approach it heading north. There's always a bunch of chaos in the ASL at Oval tube on a red light and then I need to swing into that useless bike lane to head towards Elephant going north. I tend to stay just right of the advisory lane actually, taking up some of the main lane as otherwise feel way too close to traffic swinging off to the left. But I still don't feel I've worked out the best positioning to head north. I can't decide whether I should stick to the left between Oval and the next lights for a bit and then pull across once the more impatient motorbikes are past or just head out from the middle lane. Any thoughts?
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Porgy
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 2796
Location: the foothills of the North Downs
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:19 pm |
| BentMikey wrote: | | Porgy wrote: | | I used to live in Camberwell - but occasionally I'd need to go towards Stockwell / Clapham. I agree - this is very hairy but Mat is right - get out into the middle of the middle lane well ahead of the junction and try not to worry about holding people up. Keep looking and signal furiously. You should be ok. |
I think you might mean you're agreeing with Kurako, not the RLJing Mat.
I know this junction, although I usually go along the A202. Mat's wrong about RLJing, and in particular about taking a gap with people behind you. |
I was just agreeing with the bit I quoted. I don;t believe in RLJing particularly but don;t feel strongly enough about it to argue over the issue....I don;t see it as a biggie, personally. RLJers can be annoying...but that's about it.
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane.
~ Philip K. Dick
http://porgythecat.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/ilovechomsky
http://www.arrestblair.org/ |
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MatHammond
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 701
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:20 pm |
| EC2boy wrote: | | I have just started cycling that stretch down to Clapham about three times a week and still haven't worked out my strategy for dealing with it. I'm not too worried about where I end up in the queue if the lights are red but I'm still trying to work out how best to actually approach lane three in the first place. I head down from Elephant. I'm fast but not on a racer, so not mega fast. I come alongside the park to the lights at Oval tube station junction. Is that the set of lights you're referring to or the next set along? And I've tried staying in the bus lane, then moving to lane 3. I've tried sprinting off in lane 3. None of them really works for me yet but, as I say, I'm really still getting used to that junction. I'm also trying to work out the best way to approach it heading north. There's always a bunch of chaos in the ASL at Oval tube on a red light and then I need to swing into that useless bike lane to head towards Elephant going north. I tend to stay just right of the advisory lane actually, taking up some of the main lane as otherwise feel way too close to traffic swinging off to the left. But I still don't feel I've worked out the best positioning to head north. I can't decide whether I should stick to the left between Oval and the next lights for a bit and then pull across once the more impatient motorbikes are past or just head out from the middle lane. Any thoughts? |
Heading North, stay left until there's a gap then hammer it. Like you suggest, its only motorbikes that are likely to be quicker than you away from the lights anyway so usually you can move right pretty quickly, I find the cycle lane is in pretty much the right place but you have to keep an eye out for cars switching left / right between lanes (another reason to get ahead of the traffic where possible.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N08/3866214896/in/photostream/ |
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Porgy
Joined: 27 Jun 2007
Posts: 2796
Location: the foothills of the North Downs
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:24 pm |
| EC2boy wrote: | | I have just started cycling that stretch down to Clapham about three times a week and still haven't worked out my strategy for dealing with it. I'm not too worried about where I end up in the queue if the lights are red but I'm still trying to work out how best to actually approach lane three in the first place. I head down from Elephant. I'm fast but not on a racer, so not mega fast. I come alongside the park to the lights at Oval tube station junction. Is that the set of lights you're referring to or the next set along? And I've tried staying in the bus lane, then moving to lane 3. I've tried sprinting off in lane 3. None of them really works for me yet but, as I say, I'm really still getting used to that junction. I'm also trying to work out the best way to approach it heading north. There's always a bunch of chaos in the ASL at Oval tube on a red light and then I need to swing into that useless bike lane to head towards Elephant going north. I tend to stay just right of the advisory lane actually, taking up some of the main lane as otherwise feel way too close to traffic swinging off to the left. But I still don't feel I've worked out the best positioning to head north. I can't decide whether I should stick to the left between Oval and the next lights for a bit and then pull across once the more impatient motorbikes are past or just head out from the middle lane. Any thoughts? |
Stay well out of that useless - as you say - cycle lane going to E&C. In the end I found taking that lane completely was the best option - and the one I had least trouble doing.
I think I just used to head out - don;t remember having motorbike trouble particularly - maybe its just a case of being confident, making sure you signal clearly, and go. I find that no matter how close or how fast the motorbikes go they never actually come close enough to cause problems - doesn't stop me thinking they're c*nts though.
What should be in your favour is that there are usually plenty of other cyclists all trying to do the same thing - I always felt safer in a group.
Sometimes the appropriate response to reality is to go insane.
~ Philip K. Dick
http://porgythecat.blogspot.com/
http://twitter.com/ilovechomsky
http://www.arrestblair.org/ |
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team south east
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 9
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Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:34 pm |
| The Chingford Skinhead wrote: | | Soul Boy wrote: |
...
Though to be fair, with the amount of cyclists these days just breezing through junctions (and it is still getting worse), I can see an argument that if cyclist's aren't stopping at reds and therefore not using the ASL, then why shouldn't motorbikes use them.
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As there has never been a time when ASLs were observed by motorists, perhaps the increase in RLJing is because cyclists are told it is safer to get to the front but when they do they find the ASL rammed full of motorised vehicles I don't RLJ but I think enforcement of ASLs should come before enforcement action against those who RLJ. |
Well said!!
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