Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

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cajun_cyclist
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Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby cajun_cyclist » Tue Nov 15, 2011 17:38 pm

It's interesting, reading the Fotheringham book on Fausto Coppi the part where he goes on quite a bit about the famous pictures of Coppi and Bartali exchanging a bottle of water, iconic, that's one word for them. There is not one single picture: http://www.loccidentale.it/files/immagi ... _coppi.jpg this is one, there is another one where it looks like Bartali is wearing a bandana on his head http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_QLeEPCwNvDs/S ... bottle.gif so there are at least a couple with this theme.

I do think it is interesting where Fotheringham says when you look at the picture, you are not sure who in fact is handing off and who is doing the giving, it could go both ways.

It may or not be the most famous cycling photo around but it is up there and I think virtually any cycling fan with basic knowledge of the history of the sport has seen one of these photos.

Do you have any kind of reaction, sentiment or thoughts when you see those pictures? Do you look at it and think, that epitomises that era or those champions or cycling or something of that sort? Thanks!!

Interesting spin: http://cdn.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploa ... bottle.jpg

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frenchfighter
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Sun Nov 20, 2011 20:09 pm

To be honest it doesn't do much for me personally. It can bring you back to a time quickly and conjure up romantic images of an era gone by and does so more than other images from those times but I would be reluctant to attribute that much importance.
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cajun_cyclist
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby cajun_cyclist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 02:07 am

Thanks, good to be honest. This blog below discusses it a bit so actually, the photo or photos have been written about a lot.

http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.c ... photo.html

The Fotheringham book Fallen Angel also delves into it. So, I'm kind of like others, I have always seen it and I respect it. For something similar, Bobby Moore holds up the Jacques Rimet photo of England winning the World Cup in 1966, it's iconic. I guess this photo is iconic in its own way but the Bobby Moore one many of us can relate to more. It illustrates when England was at the pinnacle of being a football power.

Another interesting question would be, what is the most famous pro cycling photo ever. To me, it probably is the Coppi Bartali one but maybe I am missing something. I'm trying to look at it historically because obviously, you might have a few photos in more recent years we would all know. Maybe worthy of being asked in a thread at some point.

http://www.giannibertoli.it/S013F1.jpg Here is another photo of other cyclists passing the bottle and the accompanying blog entry: http://www.giannibertoli.it/S013.htm I kind of understand what the writer says. It's a big deal to him.

So, I'd get the impression that while many of know this photograph, to a lot of Italians, the Coppi / Bartali pictures might be a bit of a "big deal." Perhaps to a number of cycling fans outside of Italy as well.

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cajun_cyclist
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby cajun_cyclist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 02:17 am

The Coppi Bartali photos too from soon after the end of World War II I think could also make one envision a need for a country torn apart by a war to unite. Something like this. It was a difficult time.

Image

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Rick Chasey
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:11 am

It's too old for me.

Don't care for either particularly.

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Doobz
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby Doobz » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:30 pm

Doesn't do anything for me! I guess if you were around in those times it will have a bit more significance..

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby disquieting_museeuws » Mon Nov 21, 2011 16:06 pm

I think it is an iconic image in some sense, (especially when you know a little of the 2 riders, particularly Bartali's role in the war), although Liverani says it was staged to a degree in the linked blog. The fact that it was a 'neutral' Perrier bottle made the sharing easier, although the individuals still had to perform the action, and that couldn't be faked in the middle of a Tour de France mountain.

Comradeship in cycling is something you learn out on the road - either you get it or you don't. It's about helping your riding-mate out when they've punctured 40 miles from home on a freezing day - or simply sharing a drink on a boiling day when thirst is the common enemy. In that sense it's nothing to do with anything so trite as 'sportsmanship'; it's for the same reason professionals who work together as road cyclists will wait when their fellow pros have crashed - they know next day it could (and will) be them on the receiving end.

On the day Indurain famously cracked / bonked in the 1996 Tour, Zulle had earlier offered him a bottle, noticing he was low on water. You might say Zulle was just sucking up to the patron - or that he made a decent human gesture to a fellow-worker, who knows? That's why road racing is so interesting, it's full of interpretation. For me, it's for this reason that the Coppi/Bartali photo is also interesting - and it's X 1000 more so than the contrived faux-mystical shots of men on cobbles that we get these days!

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Nov 21, 2011 16:19 pm

disquieting_museeuws wrote:On the day Indurain famously cracked / bonked in the 1996 Tour, Zulle had earlier offered him a bottle, noticing he was low on water. You might say Zulle was just sucking up to the patron - or that he made a decent human gesture to a fellow-worker, who knows? That's why road racing is so interesting, it's full of interpretation.


No, that's a power game in my book.

If I was passing Armstrong suffering, first thing I'd do would be to offer water. I'm doing well enough that I can afford to be charitable. He can't.

That instance was just Zulle showing Indurain who was boss now.

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby afx237vi » Mon Nov 21, 2011 16:29 pm

cajun_cyclist wrote:Another interesting question would be, what is the most famous pro cycling photo ever. To me, it probably is the Coppi Bartali one but maybe I am missing something. I'm trying to look at it historically because obviously, you might have a few photos in more recent years we would all know. Maybe worthy of being asked in a thread at some point


Different era, different rivalry, but I guess this one works as well as the Coppi-Bartali pictures:

Image

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Mon Nov 21, 2011 16:42 pm

Good post d_m

Am in agreement about that aspect of road cycling which is rare in other sports and sometimes allows this sport to transcend the boundaries of a 'sport'.
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Rick Chasey
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Nov 21, 2011 16:55 pm

afx237vi wrote:
cajun_cyclist wrote:Another interesting question would be, what is the most famous pro cycling photo ever. To me, it probably is the Coppi Bartali one but maybe I am missing something. I'm trying to look at it historically because obviously, you might have a few photos in more recent years we would all know. Maybe worthy of being asked in a thread at some point


Different era, different rivalry, but I guess this one works as well as the Coppi-Bartali pictures:

Image


That's a better picture in my book.

Better shot.

The Bartoli - Coppi one is only big because of what's going on. The actual qualities as a picture are pretty standard.

The Anquetil - Poulidor is just a brilliant picture.

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cajun_cyclist
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby cajun_cyclist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 17:00 pm

Postby disquieting_museeuws » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:06 pm
I think it is an iconic image in some sense, (especially when you know a little of the 2 riders, particularly Bartali's role in the war), although Liverani says it was staged to a degree in the linked blog. The fact that it was a 'neutral' Perrier bottle made the sharing easier, although the individuals still had to perform the action, and that couldn't be faked in the middle of a Tour de France mountain.

....

Good answer, that seems more on point. Doesn't mean other answers are wrong.

One reason I brought up this subject is because since I read about it, there are a few here with an impressive knowledge of the sport so I thought they might say something. And one would really have to be more into the "history" of the sport I think for it to really be noteworthy to a person.

Here is another kind of famous picture, you can buy posters of it, Smoking at the Tour, probably famous because nowadays, smoking would be one of the last things a cyclist would do in my opinion.Image
The poster shops have a few on Merckx so I think one of those photos of him is rather famous.

I think before the internet and even satellite/cable tv, since news sources were rather limited, one photo would be seen in a more widespread fashion, there were fewer news reporters so some photos might be a big deal.

No big deal for me. I even saw there is an "Iconic Pictures" blog. Mention someone, the Beatles, Babe Ruth, Olympics, Jesse Owen, etc. and there might be a few images that come to the fore more so, I guess in talking about this photo of Bartali/Coppi, it is more of a pop culture phenomenon than saying, "hey, that's a great cycling photo" in itself.

Say, for some reason if you study it and maybe some people don't know it right off but this picture of Tom Finney for some reason is real famous too, probably more of a pop culture type thing than just saying, that's a really great photo of the sport itself. To me it is somewhat artistic. Image May be before my time but I still know of it. Statue of it present day as well. The image is not a really big deal to me but I respect it. Iconic must be the word.

Lastly, anyone can do a websearch of "Coppi Bartali bottle" and you get a lot of articles on it.
Last edited by cajun_cyclist on Mon Nov 21, 2011 17:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby cajun_cyclist » Mon Nov 21, 2011 17:10 pm

Image
Like or dislike the cyclists themselves, this photo has been popular for a more recent picture.

Some photos capture a moment in time, http://tombradleyblog.com/wp-content/up ... nglook.jpg the 'glance' is real well known but, this looks like it is from film but I don't think it's really great in itself, Maradona's hand of god, Zidane headbutting that player in the World Cup or for a cycling example, isn't there actually a picture of Tom Simpson on the ground before he died? That's a sad one. These photos show more of an incident or event.

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Mon Nov 21, 2011 19:30 pm

What is the background on that Tom Finney photo?
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Mon Nov 21, 2011 19:36 pm

Here you go Cajun, I remember I had this link to some heavyweight hi-res classic photos:
http://www.bikerconnection.de/joomla/in ... 1&PageNo=1
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RichN95
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby RichN95 » Mon Nov 21, 2011 19:38 pm

frenchfighter wrote:What is the background on that Tom Finney photo?


The bigger picture:

Image
Twitter: @RichN95

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Mon Nov 21, 2011 19:46 pm

I still cant work out what sport that is. So I googled it.
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Mon Nov 21, 2011 19:58 pm

Contador is the Greatest

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cajun_cyclist
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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby cajun_cyclist » Tue Nov 22, 2011 01:15 am

That's excellent Rich, I do have the autobio of Sir Tom Finney but I was not aware of the bigger picture, have read bits of it, off subject though I did thoroughly read Sir Stanley Matthews 600+ page tome, "the way it was", I think that really is a very good book that any football fan would enjoy. classic stuff to me at least.

For another 'iconic' sports photo, I've always thought this Ali photo: http://www.maniacworld.com/muhammad-ali.jpg really sums him up as a fighter of that time, it seems to say "I'm the best, I'm the greatest, I'm a rebel, I'm arrogant" whichever adjective, I do feel for his opponent on the floor but I'm not sure if that is always shown when I see that photo. Anyway, I'm not into boxing per se: but Ali and Pele have at times, been the most recognizable faces on the planet.

Yes, maybe some day I will get that Coppi Bartali picture as a poster, I never really gave it much thought until I read the "Fallen Angel" book. http://www.giannibertoli.it/C30001.html This website seems dedicated to both of them though in Italian.

Thanks too FF for your contributions, you seem to really be into bike photos.

Image

Charlie Gaul, wild stuff!

Some of the older photos are of interest to people as well because they are from the so-called "Classic Era", I can not judge it myself but some people say starting around 1980, it started becoming more and more commercial.

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Re: Do you find the "Coppi Bartali bottle pictures" special?

Postby frenchfighter » Thu Oct 04, 2012 20:00 pm

Cajun, figured you may like this:

Image
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