F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

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neeb
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby neeb » Wed Jul 18, 2012 08:30 am

Scrumple wrote:That's the bit that I can't get my head around - if your "superstar" names of the tour are willing to take the risk then either it is liekly they can (and are) getting away with it.... OR the whole shebang is just doomed is it is so much part of the culture still.

I'm actually taking heart from the fact that it's increasingly team leaders / contenders getting caught (Contador, Frank). If everyone was doing it, you would statistically expect far more lower profile riders to test positive. Also, the high profile riders would be likely to have more sophisticated doping programs, further decreasing their chances of getting caught compared with the others. So hopefully it's now the case that it's so difficult to get away with doping that it's something only desperate major contenders would try, backed up by some very high tech and expensive pharmacological advice. Still, the fact that they are getting caught is good because it shows that even with this level of sophistication you ultimately can't beat the system.

Spiny_Norman
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Spiny_Norman » Wed Jul 18, 2012 08:34 am

Can't say it surprises me particularly, but there's something odd about this. Leaving aside all the internal machinations at RSNT, what actually happened with this test? Shouldn't the rider be informed of the positive and have the right to request a test on his B sample before the UCI goes announcing a drugs bust to the world, not to mention pretty much demanding his withdrawal despite its own rules? Compare and contrast this with the time taken to reveal Contador's positive, and that was only when the story had leaked to the German press.

However anti-doping they are, I'd prefer it if the pros held off with the scorn until the B sample results are in. There's a reason why two samples are used, and turning someone into a pariah (even if it's Frank) before the second test results.

The ideal statement, IMO, would be "If he's been doping he's an idiot and deserves everything he gets. But let's wait until it's confirmed before getting the pitchforks out."
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robert-sb
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby robert-sb » Wed Jul 18, 2012 08:40 am

Fed up that another one is caught but also pleased that another one is caught.

I am not defending hi at all (the Fuentes link is enough for me) but something does not seem right here. RSNT hang him out to dry (its not in any of our medicines), happens just at the time the Hog is in it up to his neck, it is a specified substance rather than an outright banned substance, he wasn't really expected to do anything after the Giro. He has history but does that make it more likely he doped, or, easier to set him up ?

However, what amazes me is that, with all the supposed precautions they take with regard to strict liability you still see riders taking drinks, both canned and bottles, from the crowd :roll: Not only that but on rest days they go and have coffees etc - if they really are living by strict liability why go into a public place you've probably never visited before and by an off the shelf coffee, or, do they ask to see the ingredients and test it first. Just seems total contradiction to me.

step-hent
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby step-hent » Wed Jul 18, 2012 08:58 am

robert-sb wrote:However, what amazes me is that, with all the supposed precautions they take with regard to strict liability you still see riders taking drinks, both canned and bottles, from the crowd :roll: Not only that but on rest days they go and have coffees etc - if they really are living by strict liability why go into a public place you've probably never visited before and by an off the shelf coffee, or, do they ask to see the ingredients and test it first. Just seems total contradiction to me.


I guess the reality is that, if someone wants to spike your coffee, then if you don't drink the coffee they'll find another way. Completely excluding risk is impossible (in all areas of life, not just doping for athletes) and there comes a point where people say 'it's not worth taking that particular measure'.

The alternative view is that, if you're already doping, it's easier to claim you were poisoned if you regularly take drinks from people at the side of the road. But that would be a very cynical way to look at it.

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brettjmcc
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby brettjmcc » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:05 am

RonB wrote:Same as Kolobnev last year then? (penalty not necc. circumstances)


but surely with Kolobnev at least he showed he actually had a condition for 15 years - he/the team should have just have received a separate penalty for being dumb... if you really have a medical condition you should get a TUE for medication.

I can't see how a prescribed diaretic can be linked to a medical condition, personally. Also, I would assume Whackshack also have their own personal chefs, so this poisoning play is just making me shake my head. I am now disliking the Schleck's more than before (to me since I started following cycling a few years back they have come across as a pair petulant children)
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Pross » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:11 am

Timoid. wrote:
FleshTuxedo wrote:christ, how sh*t would he have been without the drugs?



I suggest you look at CQ for his early career

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/ri ... riderid=75

Before he switched to CSC, Jalabert, Riis and Fuentes.


Yes, but then he was only 22 when he made the move having been at tiny teams before. Hardly a surprise his ranking suddenly improved really!

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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Pross » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:17 am

I quite like the conspiracy theory. That said, if it has happened I suspect it would be more that some doping was going on and the levels were tampered with to ensure detection. The thing that makes it most unlikely is that the last thing JB needs at the moment is a rider testing positive. Maybe the USADA spiked Frank to help support the impression of JB as a doping DS ;)

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PBo
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby PBo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:24 am

ddraver wrote:For some reason, I find it easier to.get behind t Belgians..?


Careful! Rick might get a bit excited thinking about "getting behind' a certain belgian!!

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Jez mon
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Jez mon » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:30 am

Pross wrote:I quite like the conspiracy theory. That said, if it has happened I suspect it would be more that some doping was going on and the levels were tampered with to ensure detection. The thing that makes it most unlikely is that the last thing JB needs at the moment is a rider testing positive. Maybe the USADA spiked Frank to help support the impression of JB as a doping DS ;)


Wouldn't you spike with a properly banned substance?
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Graeme_S
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Graeme_S » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:37 am

Jez mon wrote:Wouldn't you spike with a properly banned substance?

You'd have thought so, wouldn't you?

Be interesting to hear what sort of quantity was detected in his system as well.

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Pross
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Pross » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:37 am

Nah, too obvious then (plus you don't want him to actually win something!).

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Jez mon
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Jez mon » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:40 am

Also, why on earth isn't it a banned substance!! I thought masking agents were banned...
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ddraver
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby ddraver » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:44 am

Becasue it could be used as a masking agent, but it could also be ingested (or whatever) by accident
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iainf72
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby iainf72 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:45 am

Pross wrote:
Yes, but then he was only 22 when he made the move having been at tiny teams before. Hardly a surprise his ranking suddenly improved really!


If I remember correctly, he turned pro, was so rubbish had to go back to amateur for a while and then pro again.

Where as Andy was immense talent from the get-go.
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FleshTuxedo
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby FleshTuxedo » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:48 am

Timoid. wrote:
FleshTuxedo wrote:christ, how sh*t would he have been without the drugs?



I suggest you look at CQ for his early career

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/ri ... riderid=75

Before he switched to CSC, Jalabert, Riis and Fuentes.


Well, he was only 22 when he joined CSC from, er, Festina

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Timoid.
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Timoid. » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:49 am

Pross wrote:
Timoid. wrote:
FleshTuxedo wrote:christ, how sh*t would he have been without the drugs?



I suggest you look at CQ for his early career

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/ri ... riderid=75

Before he switched to CSC, Jalabert, Riis and Fuentes.


Yes, but then he was only 22 when he made the move having been at tiny teams before. Hardly a surprise his ranking suddenly improved really!


Improvement is to be expected, but not on the same curve as Schleck. He had no results in his first 4 years as a pro. At 23 he is still outside the top 300, at 24 just knocking on top 100. He really struggled in his early years. Something changed. Maybe it was Riis' fabled outdoor winter training camps.

For an even more remarkable improvement in rankings look at these

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/ri ... iderid=990

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/ri ... derid=5789

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Graeme_S
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby Graeme_S » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:51 am

ddraver wrote:Becasue it could be used as a masking agent, but it could also be ingested (or whatever) by accident

So his A sample has tested positive for a substance that isn't banned, his B sample hasn't been tested yet, but it's still been announced and he's withdrawn from the Tour under pressure from the UCI?

I wouldn't be surprised if he was juiced up to the eyeballs, but this whole thing has a whiff of something more than a little bit fishy.

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iainf72
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby iainf72 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:52 am

:P

It could be the UCI still don't like riders complaining about not being paid....
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ddraver
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby ddraver » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:54 am

Well UCI incompetance is a given in all cases...would the lab inform the UCI, ASO or the French Drug People (forgotten the name) or what? I would imagine ASO would want him out sharpish, the French would want to shout about how clean they are making the sport, god only knows what the UCI wants.
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Re: F Schleck tests positive for diuretic

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Jul 18, 2012 09:54 am

This poisoning story is utter nonsense.

Nobody bought it for Pantani and nobod bought it for Contador.
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