"Change Cycling Now"

Talk about competitive road cycling in all its forms
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disgruntledgoat
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby disgruntledgoat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 08:45 am

Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?

"You're so against doping!"

"No you are!"

"Oh but you're better!"

Why not invite the UCI, or Brian Cookson or somebody already involved with the governance of cycling in at least as a sounding board. And what good does inviting an anonymous loudmouth who's only involvement in the sport is libelling it's practitioners achieve? Who does she represent?

Another political organisation waiting to happen and as a gentleman at Atlanta airport once said to my brother "Sheeeeeet, what do we need more politicians for?"
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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LeicesterLad
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby LeicesterLad » Fri Nov 30, 2012 08:45 am

ddraver wrote:Trouble is LL, while I have no problem with the DS's and the doctors and the team managers etc being there, I don't understand why an ex-soigneur and a loud-mouth off of twitter (which, lets be blunt, is literally all we know about her at present) are there too.

Which fan are they representing? Mfin? Me? You? Frenchie? The drunk Basque guy on the Tourmalet? The YAnk in the Borat Mankini on the Alpe? All have an equal claim to cycling...


Thats all very well and I agree there are some interesting selections in there, but surely it comes down to nothing more than 'something is better than nothing'.

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ddraver
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby ddraver » Fri Nov 30, 2012 08:49 am

No that's true - but the trouble is if we, who (mostly) wnt to see the sport cleaned up, can so easily dismiss members as irrelevant then it does nt take much for the UCI to label the whole bunch as "whingers" and ignore them...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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Richmond Racer
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby Richmond Racer » Fri Nov 30, 2012 08:52 am

I'm too distracted by the fact that LL's changed his avatar to add my twoppennoth (again)

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby disgruntledgoat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 08:53 am

What is stopping any one of those people working through their respective federations to gain a position of influence? That's surely the way to effect genuine change. Or would that take too long?
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

@gietvangent

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OCDuPalais
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby OCDuPalais » Fri Nov 30, 2012 09:14 am

disgruntledgoat wrote:What is stopping any one of those people working through their respective federations to gain a position of influence? That's surely the way to effect genuine change. Or would that take too long?



Greg Lemond getting a look-in at the heavily Thom Weisel-influenced* USA Cycling?


mwah ha ha...



*it's been linked before, but I never tire of looking at this...http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnections.pdf

BillyMansell
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby BillyMansell » Fri Nov 30, 2012 09:55 am

ddraver wrote:Trouble is LL, while I have no problem with the DS's and the doctors and the team managers etc being there, I don't understand why an ex-soigneur and a loud-mouth off of twitter (which, lets be blunt, is literally all we know about her at present) are there too.

Which fan are they representing? Mfin? Me? You? Frenchie? The drunk Basque guy on the Tourmalet? The YAnk in the Borat Mankini on the Alpe? All have an equal claim to cycling...


As long as you focus on personalities or personal histories you'll always fnd reasons to dislike people and exclude them from the campaign.

I work with people with a diverse range of mental health problems and pesonality disorders to have a voice and change the services they receive. Despite being maligned by society they have a lived experience of a mental health condition or personality disorder that is the very reason to include them in the discussions, plus people are more than one dimensional and have skills, abilities and interests that help campaigning and change easier.

Similarly, people who've worked and lived in the doped up world of cycling have that lived experience and is the very reason to involve them in the campaign for change. Put aside your judgemental attitude of the individuals and focus on what talents and abilities they can bring to the party. This may not be the right vehicle so design a better one rather than being dismissive of this first attempt.

I don't always agree with LL but on this I do; I see no value in such nihilistic and self-destructive navel gazing from Pro Race to a campaign for change.

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iainf72
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby iainf72 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:05 am

The Mad Rapper wrote:
RichN95 wrote:WADA won't let you do either of them. Look what they did to BOA's Olympic ban.

Start again.


How are they instituted? From where do they gain their legitimacy? I don't see why an independent body couldn't or shouldn't exist; particularly if the existing bodies aren't joined up and are ineffectual.


They were formed the IOC. And UNESCO provide the international "law" basis for it. So all countries sign up to a UNESCO convention which basically gives WADA their power.

I think it was Howman who said recently that yes, maybe an independent pan-sport testing is a good thing, but there isn't a way of doing it.
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

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ddraver
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby ddraver » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:08 am

BillyMansell wrote: Put aside your judgemental attitude of the individuals and focus on what talents and abilities they can bring to the party. This may not be the right vehicle so design a better one rather than being dismissive of this first attempt.

I don't always agree with LL but on this I do; I see no value in such nihilistic and self-destructive navel gazing from Pro Race to a campaign for change.



We don't need so much of the judgemental attitude from you either thanks, I believe I ve made my points clearly, fairly, here and to festina girl and velocast.

I'm afraid you ll have to tell me what an ex soigneur and a Nobody (her choice) from twitter can bring to the discussion. I can see why Velocast are they as they provide even handed, balanced discussions of Cycling even when they actually feel very strongly one way or the other on the particular issue. If they are the BBC, Festina Girl is the Daily Mail. Worse, she is there ot campaign for transparency from UCI, Teams and others witout even providing her real name. Simply, that's too easy a place for people that something to hide, to hide behind themselves.

I hope the CCN campaign works, but to be honest I don't see how a fans voice can possibly work, or why it is necessary. I can't think of another sport with such a voice...I can only see it as a stick to beat people with real power to change the sport with.
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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- Blog-http://davekio.wordpress.com/

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby disgruntledgoat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:10 am

BillyMansell wrote:
ddraver wrote:Trouble is LL, while I have no problem with the DS's and the doctors and the team managers etc being there, I don't understand why an ex-soigneur and a loud-mouth off of twitter (which, lets be blunt, is literally all we know about her at present) are there too.

Which fan are they representing? Mfin? Me? You? Frenchie? The drunk Basque guy on the Tourmalet? The YAnk in the Borat Mankini on the Alpe? All have an equal claim to cycling...


As long as you focus on personalities or personal histories you'll always fnd reasons to dislike people and exclude them from the campaign.

I work with people with a diverse range of mental health problems and pesonality disorders to have a voice and change the services they receive. Despite being maligned by society they have a lived experience of a mental health condition or personality disorder that is the very reason to include them in the discussions, plus people are more than one dimensional and have skills, abilities and interests that help campaigning and change easier.

Similarly, people who've worked and lived in the doped up world of cycling have that lived experience and is the very reason to involve them in the campaign for change. Put aside your judgemental attitude of the individuals and focus on what talents and abilities they can bring to the party. This may not be the right vehicle so design a better one rather than being dismissive of this first attempt.

I don't always agree with LL but on this I do; I see no value in such nihilistic and self-destructive navel gazing from Pro Race to a campaign for change.


My suspicion though is that is more about continuing to keep Ashenden et al in the public eye and giving a wider, more "insider" platform to the anonymous libellers on Twitter than about effecting genuine change.
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

@gietvangent

BillyMansell
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby BillyMansell » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:31 am

ddraver wrote:
BillyMansell wrote: Put aside your judgemental attitude of the individuals and focus on what talents and abilities they can bring to the party. This may not be the right vehicle so design a better one rather than being dismissive of this first attempt.

I don't always agree with LL but on this I do; I see no value in such nihilistic and self-destructive navel gazing from Pro Race to a campaign for change.



We don't need so much of the judgemental attitude from you either thanks, I believe I ve made my points clearly, fairly, here and to festina girl and velocast.

It's interesting that you like to judge others but don't like being judged yourself, but for clarification I was responding to your judgemental comments of people's personalities and not of the people per se. If your defence against people commenting on what you say (and not you as a person) is to accuse them of being judgemental then you'll have real problems in holding any conversation.

I'm afraid you ll have to tell me what an ex soigneur and a Nobody (her choice) from twitter can bring to the discussion. I can see why Velocast are they as they provide even handed, balanced discussions of Cycling even when they actually feel very strongly one way or the other on the particular issue. If they are the BBC, Festina Girl is the Daily Mail. Worse, she is there ot campaign for transparency from UCI, Teams and others witout even providing her real name. Simply, that's too easy a place for people that something to hide, to hide behind themselves.

Again. you're attacking the person rather than what they bring to the table, and there's a certain irony in attacking people for anonymity on the internet. From my experience people often begin by bringing their own agenda to the table but they often leave or are subsumed by the greater good as long as the organisation has good leadership.

I hope the CCN campaign works, but to be honest I don't see how a fans voice can possibly work, or why it is necessary. I can't think of another sport with such a voice...I can only see it as a stick to beat people with real power to change the sport with.


So what's the alternative? I saw the grooming of the top ranks of continental amateurs back in the early '90s into drug taking which is why I advocate a bottom up approach. If nations and teams pursue clean cycling and the whistleblowing on drug taking to an organisation outside of cycling (e.g. WADA) then it sends a clear message to the top echelons of cycling that it's not acceptable.

Richmond Racer
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby Richmond Racer » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:34 am

Well, just had a look at what the roadcc lot have to say on this - their comments are interesting

http://road.cc/content/news/71354-lemon ... mit-london

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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby oneof1982 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:39 am

disgruntledgoat wrote:Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?



Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby disgruntledgoat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:47 am

oneof1982 wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?



Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.


You'll have to explain that one to me.

I have, and desire, no influence over the global organisation of my chosen sport.
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

@gietvangent

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ddraver
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby ddraver » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:55 am

BillyMansell wrote:
ddraver wrote:
BillyMansell wrote: Put aside your judgemental attitude of the individuals and focus on what talents and abilities they can bring to the party. This may not be the right vehicle so design a better one rather than being dismissive of this first attempt.

I don't always agree with LL but on this I do; I see no value in such nihilistic and self-destructive navel gazing from Pro Race to a campaign for change.



We don't need so much of the judgemental attitude from you either thanks, I believe I ve made my points clearly, fairly, here and to festina girl and velocast.

It's interesting that you like to judge others but don't like being judged yourself, but for clarification I was responding to your judgemental comments of people's personalities and not of the people per se. If your defence against people commenting on what you say (and not you as a person) is to accuse them of being judgemental then you'll have real problems in holding any conversation.


Blah blah patronise blah...You brought it up...

Do you wanna go and read the discussion I ve had with them before commenting on it maybe? (@ddraver - see my timeline)

I'm afraid you ll have to tell me what an ex soigneur and a Nobody (her choice) from twitter can bring to the discussion. I can see why Velocast are they as they provide even handed, balanced discussions of Cycling even when they actually feel very strongly one way or the other on the particular issue. If they are the BBC, Festina Girl is the Daily Mail. Worse, she is there ot campaign for transparency from UCI, Teams and others witout even providing her real name. Simply, that's too easy a place for people that something to hide, to hide behind themselves.

Again. you're attacking the person rather than what they bring to the table, and there's a certain irony in attacking people for anonymity on the internet. From my experience people often begin by bringing their own agenda to the table but they often leave or are subsumed by the greater good as long as the organisation has good leadership. [/quote]

Again, please tell me what they ll bring - I genuinely can't think of anything. If you know something please enlighten us

I hope the CCN campaign works, but to be honest I don't see how a fans voice can possibly work, or why it is necessary. I can't think of another sport with such a voice...I can only see it as a stick to beat people with real power to change the sport with.


So what's the alternative? I saw the grooming of the top ranks of continental amateurs back in the early '90s into drug taking which is why I advocate a bottom up approach. If nations and teams pursue clean cycling and the whistleblowing on drug taking to an organisation outside of cycling (e.g. WADA) then it sends a clear message to the top echelons of cycling that it's not acceptable.[/quote]

Finally a good question...

I think the meeting of Team managers, cyclists (shame there are nt more of them involved in this), doctors and members of anti-doping authorities is a good thing. What you say sounds good, but there will always be a conflict of interest between the national/international federations and doping when a particular star creates such a boon for cycling in that particualr country. Somehow, we need to wrest the control of doping from their hands, but I think this will require significant input from WADA as currently this is not legal under the code...
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver
- Blog-http://davekio.wordpress.com/

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ddraver
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby ddraver » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:56 am

Well crap that did nt work....
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
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- Blog-http://davekio.wordpress.com/

oneof1982
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby oneof1982 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:06 am

disgruntledgoat wrote:
oneof1982 wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?



Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.


You'll have to explain that one to me.

I have, and desire, no influence over the global organisation of my chosen sport.


I take it that I don't have to explain the difference between engaging in open public debate and posting on an internet chat room. Also I don't think I've misunderstood your metaphor - but please feel free to correct me.

IMHO you are one of these on this site who makes fairly well informed and most often than not, interesting comment. By doing this you are influencing the sport and those who follow it. You are taking a view that the CCN initiative is a waste of time (again correct me if I've misunderstood).

My positiion is that in addition to cycling fans sounding off on a chat room about the need for change they could do worse than support such an iniative, and positively engage.

But you are free to see yourself as having no influence.

Richmond Racer
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby Richmond Racer » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:10 am

WELL!!!

The Independent Commission to look into the Armstrong business, has been named by the UCI:

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/ENews/ENewsDe ... LangId%3D1

Sir Philip Otton - former Court of Appeal judge
Malcolm Holmes, QC
Tanni Grey-Thompson


Have to say, after all of 30 seconds thinking about this...this is more promising...

Off to start a new thread...

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby disgruntledgoat » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:12 am

oneof1982 wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:
oneof1982 wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:Isn't the danger with something like this that it just turns into a circle jerk?



Ehm, pots and kettles At least they are doing it in the daylight.


You'll have to explain that one to me.

I have, and desire, no influence over the global organisation of my chosen sport.


I take it that I don't have to explain the difference between engaging in open public debate and posting on an internet chat room. Also I don't think I've misunderstood your metaphor - but please feel free to correct me.

IMHO you are one of these on this site who makes fairly well informed and most often than not, interesting comment. By doing this you are influencing the sport and those who follow it. You are taking a view that the CCN initiative is a waste of time (again correct me if I've misunderstood).

My positiion is that in addition to cycling fans sounding off on a chat room about the need for change they could do worse than support such an iniative, and positively engage.

But you are free to see yourself as having no influence.


That's very kind of you to say so! I honestly have no desire to influence anyone, I simply don't have many "real" friends to talk cycling with, which is why I post on here.

I'm not strictly of the opinion that CCN will be a waste of time. I am, however, suspicious of political organisations that set themselves up outside of the traditional methods of influence to attempt to change the way things work (and not just in cycling). Particularly when the make up of them seems to include people who clearly revel in attention without any accountability. However, I'll keep an open mind until I see what they produce.

As to positively engaging, I do try to through organising events, contributing to various grassroots initiatives and coaching the yoof.
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

@gietvangent

Richmond Racer
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Re: "Change Cycling Now"

Postby Richmond Racer » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:17 am

And bloody hooray for that, DG. Rather more useful in the great scheme of things that just riding badly and waffling about cycling - which is what I do...


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