Puerto trial

Talk about competitive road cycling in all its forms
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rob churchill
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby rob churchill » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:05 pm

The Mad Rapper wrote:Out of curiosity, how would a normal amateur cyclist go about having their own hematocrit value determined? Is it something you can go to the Doctors for?


Your GP can do it no problem, but would probably charge you if there's no clinical reason to do the test. As a rough idea of the cost, I'd expect your own doctor to undercut this lot by about 50%.
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sherer
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby sherer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:06 pm

I think you can get a home centrifuge that tells you as well as LA and Pantani had this and just a bit of blood from the finger would tell you the reading

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:20 pm

The Mad Rapper wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:
The Mad Rapper wrote:Out of curiosity, how would a normal amateur cyclist go about having their own hematocrit value determined? Is it something you can go to the Doctors for?


Any blood test will inform you. You just need to convince them to share the detail with you! I kept badgering the doctors when I had loads of tests for beig knackered all the time. I also had some blood tested for various things in a sports science lab a few years previous to that.


Aah - cool. I'm just curious to learn how much of my poor performance on the bike is due to genetics etc and how much is due to me being a fat lazy cnut that eats too much cake! :shock:


The thing is, it does vary quite wildly. When I was tested medically it was in the high 30s, when I was tested in the lab at the height of my negligible impact on the world of cycle sport (by a doctor who worked for Rabobank, no less!) I was in the mid 40s.
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby Richmond Racer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:22 pm

Who needs T&R when we have the forum?

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:22 pm

sherer wrote:I think you can get a home centrifuge that tells you as well as LA and Pantani had this and just a bit of blood from the finger would tell you the reading


NB unless you're planning some manipulation or have a medical condition, this is probably the least cost effective way of determining your HCT
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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frenchfighter
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby frenchfighter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:23 pm

CONI's lawyer is furious. "The judge didn't let us get the blood bags nor the computer and now he doesn't want to ask about the names even though Fuentes said he could tell him. It is incomprehensible!"

Mikkel Condé v2.0 ‏@mrconde
It's now José Ignacio Labarta's turn to feel the spotlight. After him Vicente Belda and then Manolo Saiz.
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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:24 pm

frenchfighter wrote:CONI's lawyer is furious. "The judge didn't let us get the blood bags nor the computer and now he doesn't want to ask about the names even though Fuentes said he could tell him. It is incomprehensible!"

Mikkel Condé v2.0 ‏@mrconde
It's now José Ignacio Labarta's turn to feel the spotlight. After him Vicente Belda and then Manolo Saiz.


Wh don't CONI set up an investigation and call him as a witness?
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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Re: Puerto trial

Postby Richmond Racer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:34 pm

Not sure how far CONI would get without the evidence of the blood bags, comp records etc.

CONI were only able to nab Valverde cos they managed to wheedle the necessaries from the Spanish when a junior was covering holiday leave, right?

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:38 pm

Richmond Racer wrote:Not sure how far CONI would get without the evidence of the blood bags, comp records etc.

CONI were only able to nab Valverde cos they managed to wheedle the necessaries from the Spanish when a junior was covering holiday leave, right?


But starting off with the good doctor naming a load of athletes, who have competed in Italy, as clients would be a good way of ramping up the pressure, no? They must have a fairly good idea, why not just work their way down the list of every cyclist, track and field athlete and Champions League footballer asking him to state yes or no?
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ThomThom
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby ThomThom » Wed Jan 30, 2013 13:07 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:Best outcome of this trial?

Fuentes standing up mid-snitch and walking out of the court doing the piece to camera from the end of Goodfellas.


This man is just got the upper hand i this. Completely.
Last edited by ThomThom on Wed Jan 30, 2013 13:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Puerto trial

Postby Richmond Racer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 13:08 pm

Andrew Hood's summary of the farce as of end of yesterday

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/01/ ... ial_273093

sherer
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby sherer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 13:37 pm

frenchfighter wrote:CONI's lawyer is furious. "The judge didn't let us get the blood bags nor the computer and now he doesn't want to ask about the names even though Fuentes said he could tell him. It is incomprehensible!"

Mikkel Condé v2.0 ‏@mrconde
It's now José Ignacio Labarta's turn to feel the spotlight. After him Vicente Belda and then Manolo Saiz.

yep is seems any question or evidence that might link this to anything or anyone outside of cycling is banned

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frenchfighter
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby frenchfighter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 13:43 pm

Jose Guiterrez also known as "Buffalo" in Operacion Puerto.

Done for today but Saiz is up on Friday, nothing tomorrow.

http://c-cycling.blogspot.cz/2013/01/fu ... ients.html
Tennis star Nova Djokovic recently said that he was sure tennis players were the most clean athletes. Djokovic also admitted he hadn’t been blood tested in more than half a year. Same story for football as UEFA claims that Barcelona only had 3 surprise anti-doping controls in the 2010/11 season. To compare it Fabian Cancellara wrote on Twitter back December 2010 that he had had 55 anti-doping tests last year.
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KieranHardman
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby KieranHardman » Wed Jan 30, 2013 14:19 pm

It would be interesting to know how often the spanish olympic teams got tested in the same period e.g. track and field as well as the rowers that were claimed to be customers of fuentes.

Who schedules the surprise doping tests?

Seem to remember reading that dope testing football players used to be difficult as doping officials had to ask permission of the club owning the players and that the club handled the expected whereabouts by submitting the squad training programmes. If an official turned up at anything other than a match they were told the player was not required for training that day so was not there. Clubs fault and not the players so there could be no player sanctions.

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Timoid.
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby Timoid. » Wed Jan 30, 2013 16:56 pm

This trial is about breaching public health. What has the names of the athletes involved got to do with it? Unless you wish to call them in as witnesses to say that their transfusion was received with the best possible medical care?

Yes, we'd all like Fuentes to name names, but legally he doesn't have to. Also as this relates to public health and not doping, his computer records are private and should not be shared. sh!tty, but in line with the law of the land.


What should have happened is the Spanish authorities should have co-operated with WADA/CONI etc. and handed over the blood bags and records for a seperate trial for offences in other countries.

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frenchfighter
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby frenchfighter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 17:07 pm

He doesn't have to, but everyone wants to know, and he has said he would name them if asked. We shall see - it might come out later in another manner.
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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Jan 30, 2013 17:08 pm

frenchfighter wrote:He doesn't have to, but everyone wants to know, and he has said he would name them if asked. We shall see - it might come out later in another manner.


If he wants to name them, whats stopping him?
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ThomThom
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby ThomThom » Wed Jan 30, 2013 17:16 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:
frenchfighter wrote:He doesn't have to, but everyone wants to know, and he has said he would name them if asked. We shall see - it might come out later in another manner.


If he wants to name them, whats stopping him?


"Drug authorities have been eagerly waiting for Fuentes to reveal the names of the tennis players, athletes, boxers and footballers that he was involved with.

"If you give me a list, I can still identify them all,'' said Fuentes. But the judge Julia Samtamaria refused to take up Fuentes' offer. The lawyer for the Italian doping authority CONI immediately asked the judge to request Fuentes to identify the list.

She again refused, but accepted the protestations from the lawyers in the room and briefly adjourned the trial for 10 minutes.

The lawyer said: "Fuentes himself proposes to give the names and the judge refuses to ask. This is incredible." "

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... s-him.html

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Re: Puerto trial

Postby frenchfighter » Wed Jan 30, 2013 17:17 pm

edit: answered above
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mididoctors
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Re: Puerto trial

Postby mididoctors » Thu Jan 31, 2013 07:30 am

Timoid. wrote:This trial is about breaching public health. What has the names of the athletes involved got to do with it? Unless you wish to call them in as witnesses to say that their transfusion was received with the best possible medical care?


fair enough but then why the apparent focus on the cyclists?

you see the contradiction.. and as you say even if its about public health the recipients are involved
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