Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful?

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OCDuPalais
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby OCDuPalais » Fri Feb 08, 2013 14:03 pm

micron wrote:So what would you do? There's a lot of opposition to TRC but precious few alternatives being offered. Imagine you're the new broom, how do you sweep clean?


Break yourself up for kindling and get a Dyson. Let's not muck about here.

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iainf72
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby iainf72 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 14:18 pm

micron wrote:So what would you do? There's a lot of opposition to TRC but precious few alternatives being offered. Imagine you're the new broom, how do you sweep clean?


I don't know. I have no idea how to "fix" it. But that doesn't change the fact a TRC is a wee-wee poor idea. I thought the UCI IC could've been good but as soon as they mentioned a TRC I decided they were clowns.
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mididoctors
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby mididoctors » Fri Feb 08, 2013 15:20 pm

iainf72 wrote:
micron wrote:I'm interested that the UCI dissolved their own independent commission - presumably for being a little too independent? But who will independently observe and verify TRC? Who will stop reconciliation becoming retribution? UCI IC could have played an important part in that - Dame Tanni Grey Thompson is a woman of enormous integrity.


There can be no reconciliation without justice.

It's something that will solve nothing at all. Why will talking about the recent past influence the future? Ultimately no one knows what to do, so they're just clutching at anything to be seen to do something. To a point above, if you look at TRC in SA and what society is like now, it really didn't help longer term.


what would have happened without it

you dunno...

I wouldn't rule anything out and as you say you need to sweep the floor past present clean..... anybody left in the sport at the very least.

its a case of transparent adult debate... I am not so much anti-doping as I am pro sticking to the rules.
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Turfle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 15:22 pm

Who is it to the benefit of? Fans? The UCI? The anti-doping bodies?

Read the comments of the Robert Millar piece, read twitter, read the clinic. Fans don't want reconciliation, they want dirt, and they want accusation.

The only way it helps anti-doping bodies is if current cheats + doctors 'fess up to their current ways of beating tests. But why would they?

And perhaps more to the point, who is it going to satisfy? Will the clinic suddenly close down?

It's one of those things that sounds all lovely in theory, but in practice probably doesn't achieve much of anything.
Last edited by Turfle on Fri Feb 08, 2013 15:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Turfle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 15:27 pm

./.,
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ddraver
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby ddraver » Fri Feb 08, 2013 15:32 pm

micron wrote:So what would you do? There's a lot of opposition to TRC but precious few alternatives being offered. Imagine you're the new broom, how do you sweep clean?


National Federations supported by National Police need to investigate it and launch large investigations to examine what went on with the past. Participants need to know that lying has real consequences for themselves.

It won't happen, witness the farce happening in Spain at the moment, but it is the only way to properly wipe the slate clean. I'm afraid that means that we will never root out all of the cheats in the sport so we have to concentrate on the most important few. The UCI and the Team Managers.

We also need a change in the culture of cycling, but that will never happen over night, that will take years unfortunately. I'm starting to get the opinion that the rug needs to be pulled out from under these people and things like big sponsors pulling out, road cycling being pulled from the Olympics and (ultimately) viewing figures dropping so people realise that we re actually serious about this. Whilst DS's and Team leaders are earning 6 figure salaries they have no real incentive to make any changes.

Alternatively, I also wonder occasionally if any of this matters. How many of the cycling fans watching on Alpe du Huez give a monkeys if the riders are doped. I'd hazard a guess that it's not actually very many! There are people on here, (Frenchie, ThomThom) for whom riders doping is no issue...perhaps, micron we are the weird minority that care that we watch Clean Cycling?
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mididoctors
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby mididoctors » Fri Feb 08, 2013 16:16 pm

we are just falling back into this trap where T & R is seen as a exclusive choice rather than an additional one among many
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby micron » Fri Feb 08, 2013 16:27 pm

Ddraver Excellent post, though like you, I wonder if the appetite is truly there. Investigation is clearly key and an effective tool but what do you base investigations on? Plenty of scope for false accusations. And when does something cross the line from an insinuation to 'evidence' worth investigating?

Mididoctors, very much agree here too - its a tool, like investigation & testing are tools. I'm genuinely surprised at the sudden backlash against a suggestion that has broad support for several years now. Though I do think using the term truth & reconciliation is misleading.

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rob churchill
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby rob churchill » Fri Feb 08, 2013 16:31 pm

I know most people on here have read it, but I think it's worth revisiting USADA's draft terms for a TRC

Implemented properly, I think a TRC could be a very powerful method of extracting some of the poison. A few points:

The TRC needn't go on for years (although the investigations and charges against individuals might); USADA suggests "Amnesty Window. In order 'to encourage individuals to come forward in a timely fashion,' evidence must be provided to the TRC within a period of 'three weeks to one month.' After the window closes, those who provide testimony 'would have discretionary amnesty.'"

It's not about witch-hunting riders; The TRC's aim is identify evidence of "the extent of doping in cycling" and "to give riders and lower-level athlete support personnel who were forced by the culture of cycling to participate in doping the chance of a fresh start." The draft differentiates between riders and support staff, and those in "positions of team ownership and control," with automatic amnesty recommended for the former grouping and "discretionary amnesty" for the latter.

It's got teeth; Using the evidence amassed by the truth and reconciliation process, the AMO would then conduct investigations to determine whether or not to bring anti-doping violation cases against "individuals in cycling who did not participate in the amnesty programme... if information from the UCI, national anti-doping agencies or police later determines that a rider "has not been fully truthful or cooperative", the AMO can revoke the rider's amnesty and request that the relevant anti-doping agency sanction the rider in question."

Some posters have suggested that there's no incentive for anyone to testify to the TRC, but on these terms any rider who doesn't go to the TRC and spill the beans on everything he knows is surely taking a huge gamble. The risk is of ending up in the same situation that LA did - where your teammates and support staff are testifying and getting minimal sanctions, the evidence is building up against you, and you've missed your own chance to do a deal.

Who wants to be the one guy on the team who didn't talk?



P.S. Micron, Tanni's not a Dame, she's a Baronness. But yes - unimpeachable integrity.
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Rick Chasey
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Rick Chasey » Fri Feb 08, 2013 16:33 pm

I think a new sincerity or informed ignorance is the only way forward.

Call it post-postmodern sport appreciation.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Turfle » Fri Feb 08, 2013 16:48 pm

rob churchill wrote:I know most people on here have read it, but I think it's worth revisiting USADA's draft terms for a TRC

Implemented properly, I think a TRC could be a very powerful method of extracting some of the poison. A few points:

The TRC needn't go on for years (although the investigations and charges against individuals might); USADA suggests "Amnesty Window. In order 'to encourage individuals to come forward in a timely fashion,' evidence must be provided to the TRC within a period of 'three weeks to one month.' After the window closes, those who provide testimony 'would have discretionary amnesty.'"

It's not about witch-hunting riders; The TRC's aim is identify evidence of "the extent of doping in cycling" and "to give riders and lower-level athlete support personnel who were forced by the culture of cycling to participate in doping the chance of a fresh start." The draft differentiates between riders and support staff, and those in "positions of team ownership and control," with automatic amnesty recommended for the former grouping and "discretionary amnesty" for the latter.

It's got teeth; Using the evidence amassed by the truth and reconciliation process, the AMO would then conduct investigations to determine whether or not to bring anti-doping violation cases against "individuals in cycling who did not participate in the amnesty programme... if information from the UCI, national anti-doping agencies or police later determines that a rider "has not been fully truthful or cooperative", the AMO can revoke the rider's amnesty and request that the relevant anti-doping agency sanction the rider in question."

Some posters have suggested that there's no incentive for anyone to testify to the TRC, but on these terms any rider who doesn't go to the TRC and spill the beans on everything he knows is surely taking a huge gamble. The risk is of ending up in the same situation that LA did - where your teammates and support staff are testifying and getting minimal sanctions, the evidence is building up against you, and you've missed your own chance to do a deal.

Who wants to be the one guy on the team who didn't talk?



P.S. Micron, Tanni's not a Dame, she's a Baronness. But yes - unimpeachable integrity.


So admit it and we'll support you, but deny it and you'll be in trouble if we find out.

Seems oddly familiar.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby No tA Doctor » Fri Feb 08, 2013 17:07 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:I think a new sincerity or informed ignorance is the only way forward.

Call it post-postmodern sport appreciation.


I'm forming the movement for post-kitsch neo-ironic cycling now.
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rob churchill
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby rob churchill » Fri Feb 08, 2013 17:11 pm

No tA Doctor wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:I think a new sincerity or informed ignorance is the only way forward.

Call it post-postmodern sport appreciation.


I'm forming the movement for post-kitsch neo-ironic cycling now.


I can de-construct a bike, if that's any help.
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby No tA Doctor » Fri Feb 08, 2013 21:14 pm

rob churchill wrote:
No tA Doctor wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:I think a new sincerity or informed ignorance is the only way forward.

Call it post-postmodern sport appreciation.


I'm forming the movement for post-kitsch neo-ironic cycling now.


I can de-construct a bike, if that's any help.


Can you reconstruct it again? And give it a clean in between? If so, the yes, that would be a great, great help.
“Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

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rob churchill
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby rob churchill » Fri Feb 08, 2013 21:53 pm

No tA Doctor wrote:
rob churchill wrote:
No tA Doctor wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:I think a new sincerity or informed ignorance is the only way forward.

Call it post-postmodern sport appreciation.


I'm forming the movement for post-kitsch neo-ironic cycling now.


I can de-construct a bike, if that's any help.


Can you reconstruct it again? And give it a clean in between? If so, the yes, that would be a great, great help.


Of course. It's just that having dismantled the whole thing I can't guarantee to put it back together in any form you'd recognise.

Much like a TRC with cycling, really.
I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Garry H » Fri Feb 08, 2013 22:29 pm

Slightly off-topic a wee bit, but does anyone think that the risk of being outed as a cheat down the line (by means of subsequent testing in the future) would deter riders from doping in the present? ie they would have to agree to samples being tested at any time.

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rob churchill
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby rob churchill » Fri Feb 08, 2013 22:38 pm

Garry H wrote:Slightly off-topic a wee bit, but does anyone think that the risk of being outed as a cheat down the line (by means of subsequent testing in the future) would deter riders from doping in the present? ie they would have to agree to samples being tested at any time.


It couldn't hurt. I was surprised to read in the USADA reasoned judgement that there were LA samples that the doping agencies couldn't retest without his permission. There should be a rule that competitors must accede to any reasonable requirement of their governing bodies and ADA's, or face suspension.
I have a policy of only posting comment on the internet under my real name. This is to moderate my natural instinct to flame your fatuous, ill-informed, irrational, credulous, bigoted, semi-literate opinions to carbon, you knuckle-dragging f***wits.

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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby RichN95 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 22:42 pm

Garry H wrote:Slightly off-topic a wee bit, but does anyone think that the risk of being outed as a cheat down the line (by means of subsequent testing in the future) would deter riders from doping in the present? ie they would have to agree to samples being tested at any time.


Oh you are such a fool thinking that this is an off topic subject that should be neglected.

But you are clearly not a fool. You have nailed it. You are talking about retro-testing - the best bad idea we have. Tesing old samples with new tests. I think everyone thinks that would be a good idea.
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby Garry H » Fri Feb 08, 2013 22:44 pm

rob churchill wrote:It couldn't hurt. I was surprised to read in the USADA reasoned judgement that there were LA samples that the doping agencies couldn't retest without his permission. There should be a rule that competitors must accede to any reasonable requirement of their governing bodies and ADA's, or face suspension.


That's what I was thinking, make it part of the deal.

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RichN95
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Re: Is Truth & Reconciliation not just pointless but harmful

Postby RichN95 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 23:47 pm

I find it intersting that many of the internet commentators who are the most intersted in 'Truth' are those who are unwilling to reveal who they are.

So, twitter activists - if you want true transparency and truth, let us know who you are.

Not you Suze - we know you - I'll give you credit for that.
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