why the training?

When drugs don't work: training and health tips!
poynedexter
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why the training?

Postby poynedexter » Tue Sep 11, 2012 05:42 am

there is a lot of talk on here about scientific training, watts/kg, intervals, strava times and a whole other manor of things involving numbers.

my question would be, why are you doing this "training". its not a dig or snub, just a query about what you want to achieve. is it for racing? sportives? because you like seeing data of improvement? fun? does data help you or motivate you to keep at it? (just to get an idea of who does this for what reason)!

i only ask this because i know if i personally tried this method using data, i would quickly become governed by numbers and lose the essense of why i started riding push bikes, and that was fun! i enjoy pushing myself on the bike a lot but also cruising with chums that keeps it fresh. if i feel i'm working well thats as much as i need to know.

btw, i'm training for some 2013 racing, but riding my bike with a few friends and our shiny toys :D

philthy3
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Re: why the training?

Postby philthy3 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 06:22 am

So how do you know you're improving or what works for you if you aren't using numbers to measure? I can't believe you're considering racing next year without knowing if you're going to have to reserve a season ticket on the broom wagon.
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amaferanga
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Re: why the training?

Postby amaferanga » Tue Sep 11, 2012 06:30 am

If you're training to race by just riding around with your mates then I predict your first race will be a short one :wink:
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slunker
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Re: why the training?

Postby slunker » Tue Sep 11, 2012 07:08 am

Just my tuppence worth.

My club mate trains with power cranks meters HR and all other sort of gubbins. I train on feel.....sometimes hard sometimes out for a jolly and I'm afraid I get much better results in races and TT's than him. we started out at the same time but I seem to have progressed more.

I think all this data and equipment is a bit gimmicky and sold to people as guaranteeing they will get quicker. Of course if you have a coach analysing your data and tweaking your training it will help but I reckon this is only if your a 1st cat and above rider. I'm a 2nd cat at the moment but don't want governed by numbers and then not enjoying going out on my bike. I like to look at the scenery not a digital read out.

Just my perspective.......

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ShutUpLegs
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Re: why the training?

Postby ShutUpLegs » Tue Sep 11, 2012 07:19 am

poynedexter wrote:there is a lot of talk on here about scientific training, watts/kg, intervals, strava times and a whole other manor of things involving numbers.


I've not seen any threads on here discussing Strava :?:
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amaferanga
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Re: why the training?

Postby amaferanga » Tue Sep 11, 2012 07:23 am

slunker wrote:Just my tuppence worth.

My club mate trains with power cranks meters HR and all other sort of gubbins. I train on feel.....sometimes hard sometimes out for a jolly and I'm afraid I get much better results in races and TT's than him. we started out at the same time but I seem to have progressed more.

I think all this data and equipment is a bit gimmicky and sold to people as guaranteeing they will get quicker. Of course if you have a coach analysing your data and tweaking your training it will help but I reckon this is only if your a 1st cat and above rider. I'm a 2nd cat at the moment but don't want governed by numbers and then not enjoying going out on my bike. I like to look at the scenery not a digital read out.

Just my perspective.......


Could it be that you are just better than your mate? So no matter how he trains he might never be as good as you?

As for your comment regarding guarantees of getting quicker - do you really think that's what people that train with power meters or other gadgets think? Do you think we're all just idiots that think if we spend a few hundred quid on a gadget then we will get quicker? One thing is for sure though - they're more likely to lead to improvement than that set of £2000 wheels or £3000 bike.

Power meters, HR monitors, etc. are aids to training. If you buy them and just ride the same as before then they'll make chuff all difference, but if you use them intelligently then they can help you get the most out of your training.

And if you're out for a ride and looking around and enjoying the scenery then you're not training whether you have a gadget or not. Nothing wrong with that if that's what you want to do. Similarly, just because you train with power or whatever, doesn't mean you can't just go for a nice bike ride just for enjoyment sometimes.
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Ric/RSTSport
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Re: why the training?

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Tue Sep 11, 2012 07:23 am

slunker wrote:Just my tuppence worth.

My club mate trains with power cranks meters HR and all other sort of gubbins. I train on feel.....sometimes hard sometimes out for a jolly and I'm afraid I get much better results in races and TT's than him. we started out at the same time but I seem to have progressed more.

I think all this data and equipment is a bit gimmicky and sold to people as guaranteeing they will get quicker. Of course if you have a coach analysing your data and tweaking your training it will help but I reckon this is only if your a 1st cat and above rider. I'm a 2nd cat at the moment but don't want governed by numbers and then not enjoying going out on my bike. I like to look at the scenery not a digital read out.

Just my perspective.......



as a coach, who is interested in data, i've never said that an athlete can't look at the scenery. i think it's crucial (looking around). if you're just staring at your power meter display you're doing something very wrong.

ric
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poynedexter
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Re: why the training?

Postby poynedexter » Tue Sep 11, 2012 09:29 am

i'm not saying that data cannot be helpful, and i have done some racing this year and its very hard work. but i dont need data targets to know ehen i'm working hard and effectively. it just feels right. i just question the "overuse" of numbers as if they reflect what cycling is about.

in order to progress your fitness, its more about working through mental and physical barriers, rather than achieving data goals.

i just get a little lost with all this data related training, especially when most replies to "how to ride faster" threads seem to be, ride your bike longer, faster, rest, repeat. simple. (oh and lose body fat!)

philthy3
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Re: why the training?

Postby philthy3 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:29 am

So to train for endurance (100 miles plus) you'd just go head down and go would you? Zonal training as one example has long been advocated as a beneficial technique to improve performance. How do you know you're in that zone without using some form of measuring? Just blasting around with your HR at peak for long periods might benefit you anaerobic ally (there are reports that max HR should be done only for short periods to avoid damage) but won't in other areas. How do you know what works best for you if you aren't comparing results?
We're all buffoons; some slightly less than others.

danowat
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Re: why the training?

Postby danowat » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:41 am

I race, if I didn't race, I wouldn't cycle.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: why the training?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:46 am

poynedexter wrote:there is a lot of talk on here about scientific training, watts/kg, intervals, strava times and a whole other manor of things involving numbers.

my question would be, why are you doing this "training". its not a dig or snub, just a query about what you want to achieve. is it for racing? sportives? because you like seeing data of improvement? fun? does data help you or motivate you to keep at it? (just to get an idea of who does this for what reason)!


There is a difference between "exercising" and "training". You exercise for general health and well being, and for enjoyment. Training is for when you have a specific performance improvement objective and so ride accordingly. Naturally you can also have the benefits of exercise from training.

poynedexter wrote:i only ask this because i know if i personally tried this method using data, i would quickly become governed by numbers and lose the essense of why i started riding push bikes, and that was fun! i enjoy pushing myself on the bike a lot but also cruising with chums that keeps it fresh. if i feel i'm working well thats as much as i need to know.

Training by data doesn't get you very far. Indeed it can be mentally counter-productive as you have described.

You need to learn to train with the data. Once you understand that, then the paradigm shift takes you into a new realm.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: why the training?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:53 am

poynedexter wrote:i just get a little lost with all this data related training, especially when most replies to "how to ride faster" threads seem to be, ride your bike longer, faster, rest, repeat. simple. (oh and lose body fat!)

If someone comes here and asks about how to improve, and it's clear that the amount of training (exercising) they do is pretty modest, then yes, that's reasonable general advice, although some ways to go about that challenge are better than others, and it will work in most cases, but perhaps not be as effective as it might be.

However such advice falls down once you reach a certain level of performance, and a lot more thought needs to go into how to take the next steps up the performance ladder.

okgo
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Re: why the training?

Postby okgo » Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:54 am

Train for racing. Use power to help.

I got to the stage I'm at now without really using power or HR, but going forward its useful stuff to have.
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

ut_och_cykla
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Re: why the training?

Postby ut_och_cykla » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:07 am

Train (sort of) to stay fit, manage weight a little , be able to cycle all day with my grown up kids now and again, visit some stupendous places by bike, enjoy the countryside, meet like minded people, etc etc. I'll never win a race but I don't mind -

Tom Dean
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Re: why the training?

Postby Tom Dean » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:57 am

philthy3 wrote:Just blasting around with your HR at peak for long periods


This (whatever it means)is the alternative to training with a power meter is it? You can and should apply the same principles to your training however you choose to measure what you are doing.

poynedexter
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Re: why the training?

Postby poynedexter » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:26 pm

i reckon the use of data, depends largely on what level you are at. personally, i've exercised/ trained for 20 + years but only in the last 12 months have i focused on cycling. the gains i've made in that time have been easy to see for me. when i race i see the gulf that i still need to cross and thats only at a local level. i really dont think i need to measure my efforts too much yet, just make the effort, rest and eat properly.

when i train i dont just go flat out with no thought, i mix different work rates in but do it by feel. numbers would only lead to frustration if they dont add up over the weeks.

what has brought me on recently has been racing, and its way harder than any training session i could do. its a very mentally tough deal and is about not giving up, holding the wheel when your legs say no. thats the bit which no data could push me to do. but its giving me the results i want.

maybe in 5 years when i'm going no better suddenly, i'd need to see why, but by that stage i'll have realised its no big deal anyway.

philthy3
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Re: why the training?

Postby philthy3 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 13:12 pm

Tom Dean wrote:
philthy3 wrote:Just blasting around with your HR at peak for long periods


This (whatever it means)is the alternative to training with a power meter is it? You can and should apply the same principles to your training however you choose to measure what you are doing.


I think you're misquoting me; I fully agree with the use of measuring performance whatever means a rider uses, but it has to be reliable. If you could guarantee what wattage you are putting out or what HR you're at just by feel, then fair enough, but I can't. I need to use something that allows me to verify what I'm doing. It doesn't mean watching it all ride long, it's a guide occasionally glanced at. That day's performance can then be compared against previous days to gauge whether improvements have been made.
We're all buffoons; some slightly less than others.

Tom Dean
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Re: why the training?

Postby Tom Dean » Tue Sep 11, 2012 15:18 pm

So who was suggesting training like that?

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SBezza
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Re: why the training?

Postby SBezza » Tue Sep 11, 2012 15:25 pm

danowat wrote:I race, if I didn't race, I wouldn't cycle.


This sums it up for me, I want to race at a high level and to do that I need to train bloody hard. It isn't fun alot of the time, but the results I have achieved far outweigh the downsides.

I would ride a bike still, but it would only be back and forwards to work and the weekend club runs, I certainly wouldn't train as such. I use a powermeter so my coach and I can gauge performance increases, but I certainly don't live by numbers, I can train pretty much at the right level for the majority of the time without looking at the figures.

philthy3
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Re: why the training?

Postby philthy3 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 16:39 pm

Tom Dean wrote:So who was suggesting training like that?


The OP

.
poynedexter wrote:i'm not saying that data cannot be helpful, and i have done some racing this year and its very hard work. but i dont need data targets to know ehen i'm working hard and effectively. it just feels right. i just question the "overuse" of numbers as if they reflect what cycling is about.

in order to progress your fitness, its more about working through mental and physical barriers, rather than achieving data goals.

i just get a little lost with all this data related training, especially when most replies to "how to ride faster" threads seem to be, ride your bike longer, faster, rest, repeat. simple. (oh and lose body fat!)
We're all buffoons; some slightly less than others.


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