WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my trainer

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Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:23 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:What, power meters not accurate and need calibrating, you will be saying there are fairies at the bottom of the garden next. All that power meter data analysis might be wrong because the power meter might not necessarily be calibrated correctly, good god man, this could lead people to need counselling.

Are you banned from the TTF or something? :lol:


Yes, partly due to complaints by people trying to sell power meters, they get a bit touchy whenever I point out how many threads there are on timetrialling forum about power meters that don't work properly.

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amaferanga
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:25 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:What, power meters not accurate and need calibrating, you will be saying there are fairies at the bottom of the garden next. All that power meter data analysis might be wrong because the power meter might not necessarily be calibrated correctly, good god man, this could lead people to need counselling.

Are you banned from the TTF or something? :lol:


Yes, partly by people trying to sell power meters, they get a bit touchy whenever I point out how many threads there are on timetrialling forum about power meters that don't work properly.


So the reason you're banned is all their fault and not yours? You're entirely innocent, did nothing wrong right?
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Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:44 am

amaferanga wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:What, power meters not accurate and need calibrating, you will be saying there are fairies at the bottom of the garden next. All that power meter data analysis might be wrong because the power meter might not necessarily be calibrated correctly, good god man, this could lead people to need counselling.

Are you banned from the TTF or something? :lol:


Yes, partly by people trying to sell power meters, they get a bit touchy whenever I point out how many threads there are on timetrialling forum about power meters that don't work properly.


So the reason you're banned is all their fault and not yours? You're entirely innocent, did nothing wrong right?



What has Molteni Mike's little tantrum on timetrialling forum got to do with the reliability of power meters?

Things follow a familiar pattern, people don't like what I say so instead of reasoned argument they attack me personally. You don't like the fact that I am pointing out that power meters are unreliable so you want to talk about why I was banned from time trialling forum - interesting.

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amaferanga
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:06 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
amaferanga wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:What, power meters not accurate and need calibrating, you will be saying there are fairies at the bottom of the garden next. All that power meter data analysis might be wrong because the power meter might not necessarily be calibrated correctly, good god man, this could lead people to need counselling.

Are you banned from the TTF or something? :lol:


Yes, partly by people trying to sell power meters, they get a bit touchy whenever I point out how many threads there are on timetrialling forum about power meters that don't work properly.


So the reason you're banned is all their fault and not yours? You're entirely innocent, did nothing wrong right?



What has Molteni Mike's little tantrum on timetrialling forum got to do with the reliability of power meters?

Things follow a familiar pattern, people don't like what I say so instead of reasoned argument they attack me personally. You don't like the fact that I am pointing out that power meters are unreliable so you want to talk about why I was banned from time trialling forum - interesting.


I have absolutely no idea what went on with the TT forum and you and to be honest I don't really care.

And I have no desire to discuss you so let's just get back on topic.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:26 pm

In my opinion, power meters being so unreliable and expensive, people should seriously consider if they are worth the trouble. I doubt there is much point in trying to calibrate a turbo using a power meter. The effort would be better spent making sure any results on the turbo are repeatable by making sure tyre pressure and pressure of roller on the tyre is the same for each session.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:40 pm

That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??

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Team4Luke
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Team4Luke » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:46 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Speed on a trainer is meaningless. All that matters is intensity and time.



not neccessarily, depends on the trainer and whether you run a permanent bike and permanent conditions including being in a fixed room ie never moved and using same tyre pressures, same tyre and doing a roll down, same resistance setting, I never change mine resistance setting just no need etc, I would agree that sticking your bike on/off every time would lead to variables but not a fixed rig set up and if you have that then no reason you can not simply say ride at 20mph for an hour (not using turbo speed though) and of course that in itself is an intensity, progression from that would be holding out for 21mph an hour etc.
Doesn't take much to set up a fixed rig, you only need bare minimum of a whole bike, second hand bits, proper turbo tyre and should be no need to move it ever and should get easily a year out of a tyre if not more.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:56 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??



Just as people can come on a forum and state how much they like and explain the benefits of a particular technology, I think I am allowed to point out any draw backs a particular technology may have. Given people might part with hard earned cash, or credit extended at userious interest rates, I think it reasonable people are infomed of the cons as well as the pros.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:00 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??



Just as people can come on a forum and state how much they like and explain the benefits of a particular technology, I think I am allowed to point out any draw backs a particular technology may have. Given people might part with hard earned cash, or credit extended at userious interest rates, I think it reasonable people are infomed of the cons as well as the pros.

It's also reasonable that the people with money to spend on technology have some clue as to how it works and what it does.

There is a huge difference in pointing things out and whining like a little *****. You stopped doing the former many many posts ago.

Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:05 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??



Just as people can come on a forum and state how much they like and explain the benefits of a particular technology, I think I am allowed to point out any draw backs a particular technology may have. Given people might part with hard earned cash, or credit extended at userious interest rates, I think it reasonable people are infomed of the cons as well as the pros.

It's also reasonable that the people with money to spend on technology have some clue as to how it works and what it does.
There is a huge difference in pointing things out and whining like a little *****. You stopped doing the former many many posts ago.


Or what it is supposed to do but does not most of the time.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:07 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??



Just as people can come on a forum and state how much they like and explain the benefits of a particular technology, I think I am allowed to point out any draw backs a particular technology may have. Given people might part with hard earned cash, or credit extended at userious interest rates, I think it reasonable people are infomed of the cons as well as the pros.

It's also reasonable that the people with money to spend on technology have some clue as to how it works and what it does.
There is a huge difference in pointing things out and whining like a little *****. You stopped doing the former many many posts ago.


Or what it is supposed to do but does not most of the time.

Do you study your toaster to make sure each slice of bread is toasted perfectly evenly? Or do you now toast on a fork over an open fire?

Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:18 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??



Just as people can come on a forum and state how much they like and explain the benefits of a particular technology, I think I am allowed to point out any draw backs a particular technology may have. Given people might part with hard earned cash, or credit extended at userious interest rates, I think it reasonable people are infomed of the cons as well as the pros.

It's also reasonable that the people with money to spend on technology have some clue as to how it works and what it does.
There is a huge difference in pointing things out and whining like a little *****. You stopped doing the former many many posts ago.


Or what it is supposed to do but does not most of the time.

Do you study your toaster to make sure each slice of bread is toasted perfectly evenly? Or do you now toast on a fork over an open fire?


I have one of these http://www.e4electricals.com/product.aspx?id=2559 it is very reliable.

neeb
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby neeb » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:20 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:In my opinion, power meters being so unreliable and expensive, people should seriously consider if they are worth the trouble. I doubt there is much point in trying to calibrate a turbo using a power meter. The effort would be better spent making sure any results on the turbo are repeatable by making sure tyre pressure and pressure of roller on the tyre is the same for each session.

What do you base this on? So you are claiming that all power meters are too unreliable to consistently produce data within an acceptable margin of error (say 1- 2%) even if used properly?

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:23 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:That's great Trev, but can you stop ******** on every thread that mentions some form of technology you don't like??



Just as people can come on a forum and state how much they like and explain the benefits of a particular technology, I think I am allowed to point out any draw backs a particular technology may have. Given people might part with hard earned cash, or credit extended at userious interest rates, I think it reasonable people are infomed of the cons as well as the pros.

It's also reasonable that the people with money to spend on technology have some clue as to how it works and what it does.
There is a huge difference in pointing things out and whining like a little *****. You stopped doing the former many many posts ago.


Or what it is supposed to do but does not most of the time.

Do you study your toaster to make sure each slice of bread is toasted perfectly evenly? Or do you now toast on a fork over an open fire?


I have one of these http://www.e4electricals.com/product.aspx?id=2559 it is very reliable.

How have you measured this? Wristwatch?

Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 13:37 pm

neeb wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:In my opinion, power meters being so unreliable and expensive, people should seriously consider if they are worth the trouble. I doubt there is much point in trying to calibrate a turbo using a power meter. The effort would be better spent making sure any results on the turbo are repeatable by making sure tyre pressure and pressure of roller on the tyre is the same for each session.

What do you base this on? So you are claiming that all power meters are too unreliable to consistently produce data within an acceptable margin of error (say 1- 2%) even if used properly?


I refer you to many threads on many forums where people have trouble with power meters.

There are problems with Powertap and Quarq and SRM. My personal experience and judging from what people I have met, is that there are often calibration problems, problems with loss of signal, or erratic working.

There are people who seem to have few problems, others have nothing but trouble.

An example thread, http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... 2680&st=0&

ziglar
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby ziglar » Wed Oct 24, 2012 14:58 pm

you are obviously not advocating that people stop trying to measure their performance based on power output from powermeters so what is the alternative?

Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 15:18 pm

ziglar wrote:you are obviously not advocating that people stop trying to measure their performance based on power output from powermeters so what is the alternative?


You do not need to measure power to train effectively. There are other ways of measuring performance. You do not need to measure performance all the time or even often.

In an ideal world we would all have an accurate and reliable power meter, but even if we did, I don't think measuring and recording all the power meter data all the time and all the analysis is the best way for everyone.

The big problem with measuring cycling performance is variability caused by wind, temperature & air pressure. Even accurate power measurement does not solve all problems. 300 watts on a hot humid day is harder work than 300 watts in ideal conditions. 300 watts in cold wet air might be very hard, but 300 watts on a cool dry afternoon might be easy. Air quality is a factor for many. Thus your power meter might show an improvement in watts output when the improvement is really down to better air quality or cooler conditions not improved fitness.

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amaferanga
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 24, 2012 15:31 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
neeb wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:In my opinion, power meters being so unreliable and expensive, people should seriously consider if they are worth the trouble. I doubt there is much point in trying to calibrate a turbo using a power meter. The effort would be better spent making sure any results on the turbo are repeatable by making sure tyre pressure and pressure of roller on the tyre is the same for each session.

What do you base this on? So you are claiming that all power meters are too unreliable to consistently produce data within an acceptable margin of error (say 1- 2%) even if used properly?


I refer you to many threads on many forums where people have trouble with power meters.

There are problems with Powertap and Quarq and SRM. My personal experience and judging from what people I have met, is that there are often calibration problems, problems with loss of signal, or erratic working.

There are people who seem to have few problems, others have nothing but trouble.

An example thread, http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... 2680&st=0&


Of course there are issues with power meters, like there is with any technology. People have issues with STIs for example, but it'd be ludicrous to say that because a minority of people have issues then we should all stop using them and go back to friction shifting. With power meters, provided you understand their limitations and you are at least vaguely intelligent then they are a useful training aid. Clearly they are not perfect nor are they fool proof. Some of the issues people report are user error, some are technical issues.

Which power meters have you used then and what problems did you have exactly?
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amaferanga
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 24, 2012 15:35 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
ziglar wrote:you are obviously not advocating that people stop trying to measure their performance based on power output from powermeters so what is the alternative?


You do not need to measure power to train effectively. There are other ways of measuring performance. You do not need to measure performance all the time or even often.

In an ideal world we would all have an accurate and reliable power meter, but even if we did, I don't think measuring and recording all the power meter data all the time and all the analysis is the best way for everyone.

The big problem with measuring cycling performance is variability caused by wind, temperature & air pressure. Even accurate power measurement does not solve all problems. 300 watts on a hot humid day is harder work than 300 watts in ideal conditions. 300 watts in cold wet air might be very hard, but 300 watts on a cool dry afternoon might be easy. Air quality is a factor for many. Thus your power meter might show an improvement in watts output when the improvement is really down to better air quality or cooler conditions not improved fitness.


As I said in my other post, provided you are vaguely intelligent then power meters are a useful training aid.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: WTD: Someone with Power Meter to help calibrate my train

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 24, 2012 15:44 pm

amaferanga wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
neeb wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:In my opinion, power meters being so unreliable and expensive, people should seriously consider if they are worth the trouble. I doubt there is much point in trying to calibrate a turbo using a power meter. The effort would be better spent making sure any results on the turbo are repeatable by making sure tyre pressure and pressure of roller on the tyre is the same for each session.

What do you base this on? So you are claiming that all power meters are too unreliable to consistently produce data within an acceptable margin of error (say 1- 2%) even if used properly?


I refer you to many threads on many forums where people have trouble with power meters.

There are problems with Powertap and Quarq and SRM. My personal experience and judging from what people I have met, is that there are often calibration problems, problems with loss of signal, or erratic working.

There are people who seem to have few problems, others have nothing but trouble.

An example thread, http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... 2680&st=0&


Of course there are issues with power meters, like there is with any technology. People have issues with STIs for example, but it'd be ludicrous to say that because a minority of people have issues then we should all stop using them and go back to friction shifting. With power meters, provided you understand their limitations and you are at least vaguely intelligent then they are a useful training aid. Clearly they are not perfect nor are they fool proof. Some of the issues people report are user error, some are technical issues.

Which power meters have you used then and what problems did you have exactly?


Personally Quarq, Powertap, Garmin Vector (3 tests only), Look Keo, Wattbike. I would prefer not to talk openly on a forum about specific issues or specific brands. But I had problems. You can PM me if you want more details.


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