Training With Power - Evidence

When drugs don't work: training and health tips!
Setarkos
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Setarkos » Tue Dec 04, 2012 09:38 am

If it wasn't early (well, sort of) in the morning, I'd get a beer and crisps and keep reading :D

Edit: Oh god, now I'm actually having crisps for breakfast... :?

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Dec 04, 2012 09:51 am

Ric/RSTSport wrote:i believe that hamish is doing the research you're interested in


Who is Hamish?


Herbsman,

Read your last post.

I too am interested in power, the hard numbers, facts rather than guesswork; that is why I have trained using power. It is more the way some people, some coaches & sports scientists, but not all, in my opinion, get so bogged down in the numbers they lose sight of the whole picture and pay too little attention to other things that are important, that causes me to question whether, in the long run, this whole data analysis approach works best for most people.
Last edited by Trev The Rev on Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Percy Vera
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Percy Vera » Tue Dec 04, 2012 09:56 am

Trev, maybe you can tell us the answers to your questions, as you had a business last year selling Power Meters; or did you believe you were selling snake oil? :D


A Power Meter is a tool. You shouldn't become reliant on it (if you do what do you do if it breaks? stop training?); it won't make your training more effective, but it can help you to train more effectively if used correctly.

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secretsqizz
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby secretsqizz » Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:09 am

Hamish
used to post useful stuff on here until certain people started to mess with his head.
My pen won't write on the screen

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GiantMike
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby GiantMike » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:30 am

Percy Vera wrote:Trev, maybe you can tell us the answers to your questions, as you had a business last year selling Power Meters; or did you believe you were selling snake oil? :D


Is there any evidence that snake oil improves training?
my power improvement experiment blog

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GiantMike
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby GiantMike » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:38 am

Trev The Rev wrote:Is there any evidence that training with a power meter works better than training without one?


Yes. based on a survey of one (me), I train harder and more consistently than I would if I was relying on HR or RPE. It has also provided me with a better understanding of what I have or haven't achieved and what I am capable of. I have demonstrated to myself that HR and RPE are poor guides to actual performance. It has allowed me to understand the difference between the quantity of training and the quality.

I can't speak for others, but I would imagine that there are some people who get a benefit from training with power, some that don't get any benefit, and some that are negatively affected. The same can be said about turbo trainers, HR monitors, clip-in pedals etc.

Here's a recent workout (Sufferfest's Hell Hath No Fury) and analysis. I couldn't have understood what happened without a powermeter and the ability to record my output. And doing the intervals on RPE or HR would just mean that I would have backed off on effort but still thought I had completed them.
my power improvement experiment blog

Rule number 100: It's your bike and your money and your time; do what you like with it and ignore other peoples' rules. Except this one.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:49 am

Is there any evidence that carpenters do better work with a tape measure?

NewTTer
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby NewTTer » Tue Dec 04, 2012 14:01 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there any evidence that carpenters do better work with a tape measure?

Ah Alex, you are presuming Trev understands common sense!

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Dec 04, 2012 15:15 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there any evidence that carpenters do better work with a tape measure?


A good carpenter would not use inaccurate or unreliable tools.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby NewTTer » Tue Dec 04, 2012 16:21 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there any evidence that carpenters do better work with a tape measure?


A good carpenter would not use inaccurate or unreliable tools.

So now you are finished questioning the validity of training with power meters question, and have moved on to, are power meters accurate?
In other words you have been exposed as the clown you really are and have decided to move the goal posts.

Go see your GP Trev, I mean you on your own provide enough material to keep a psychiatric convention busy for years. You really need some help, dont be embarrassed mental health issues dont hold the stigma they used to.
Last edited by NewTTer on Tue Dec 04, 2012 16:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Herbsman
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Tue Dec 04, 2012 16:31 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there any evidence that carpenters do better work with a tape measure?


A good carpenter would not use inaccurate or unreliable tools.

I'd have thought that a good carpenter would use the best tools that he could afford. I'm sure that would be preferable to using no tools at all.
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Ric/RSTSport
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Tue Dec 04, 2012 17:14 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is there any evidence that carpenters do better work with a tape measure?


A good carpenter would not use inaccurate or unreliable tools.


A carpenters tools can suffer some of the same issues as a power meter. For e.g., what happens when the carpenter works in a hot environment and the tape measure expands? At least with a power meter it can be reset.
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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Tue Dec 04, 2012 22:28 pm

Well the question of the accuracy of power meters has been addressed in scientific study. I'll leave it to others to look for those published reports if they are that interested.

Power meters are not a method of training, they are a tool, so the question itself is based on a false premise.

It's entirely possible to train like crap while using a power meter, and to train well without one. For the latter, it will be a bit harder to validate as of course one does need an objective measure of performance, and modern power meters, used properly, are going to provide that information to a greater degree of accuracy than e.g. any timed cycling event will, even a hillclimb.

Keep in mind that for someone that trains regularly, the variation in performance (power) during full season is likely to be less than 10% and when fit, the incremental changes are less, far less than can be assessed with anything other than a measurement of power output.

As for confining the argument to the example of interval training alone, well if that's the narrow scope upon which such a broad conclusion is to be drawn, then that just demonstrates either or both a lack of understanding of how the body works, let alone the entirety of how one can use a power meter to more effectively manage a rider's training and improve performance.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:06 am

I'm sure there is more out there than this.

http://www.computrainer.com.au/images/A ... Sports.pdf

Looks as though I have done a good job advertising power meters - again.

It really isn't easy arguing a weak case. A bit like being a barrister defending a blatantly guilty criminal. The best you can do is muddy the waters and hope the prosecution make a mistake.

I would only add that you should be able to measure improvements in performance using an indoor trainer provided you are very careful with the set up, (like Obree), but if you go to all that trouble why not use a power meter?

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Herbsman
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:51 am

price

slunker
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby slunker » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:58 pm

Is a power meter a tool as such?? I thought it was like a speedo and just provided data but most people don't call a speedo a tool.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby jibberjim » Wed Dec 05, 2012 13:19 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:I would only add that you should be able to measure improvements in performance using an indoor trainer provided you are very careful with the set up, (like Obree)


If you're doing that, then it _is_ a power meter you're using, just a pretty cumbersome and inaccurate one that is measuring indoor trainer performance, when most people care about their outdoor performance.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 05, 2012 13:30 pm

jibberjim wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I would only add that you should be able to measure improvements in performance using an indoor trainer provided you are very careful with the set up, (like Obree)


If you're doing that, then it _is_ a power meter you're using, just a pretty cumbersome and inaccurate one that is measuring indoor trainer performance, when most people care about their outdoor performance.


Why remove the rest of my post? Which was, "but if you go to all that trouble why not use a power meter?"

I think you will find Obree's set up is very accurate though. He claims to within 0.5%. Which is more accurate than the 1.5% claimed by most power meters.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby jibberjim » Wed Dec 05, 2012 13:33 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:Why remove the rest of my post? Which was, "but if you go to all that trouble why not use a power meter?"


Because it was irrelevant - it just served to higlight even more that you do not understand that what you described IS a power meter, they are using one.
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doyler78
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby doyler78 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 13:35 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
jibberjim wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I would only add that you should be able to measure improvements in performance using an indoor trainer provided you are very careful with the set up, (like Obree)


If you're doing that, then it _is_ a power meter you're using, just a pretty cumbersome and inaccurate one that is measuring indoor trainer performance, when most people care about their outdoor performance.


Why remove the rest of my post? Which was, "but if you go to all that trouble why not use a power meter?"

I think you will find Obree's set up is very accurate though. He claims to within 0.5%. Which is more accurate than the 1.5% claimed by most power meters.


How's he calibrating it though?


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