Sky - what training are they really doing?

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Trev The Rev
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Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 17, 2012 09:26 am

Much talk about reverse periodisation (been around since the 1980s, hardly new), using TrainingPeaks (what were they using before?), training at altitude (Tenerife) and not racing too much or using races to get fit. Maintaining intense work all year round but increasing load and tapering to peak etc etc. Sleeping at simulated altitude. The marginal gains mantra.

How much is bull for the fans how much is truth?

One thing for sure, with so many of the riders / staff leaving or being pushed some other teams will now know what some if not all their secrets are.

danowat
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby danowat » Mon Dec 17, 2012 09:32 am

I don't think they are doing anything special or secret, I just think they are tieing it together better, the total is more than a sum of it's parts etc.

Psychological warfare is pretty important in sport (heck, it's rife in amateur sport!), hence all the BS.

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SBezza
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby SBezza » Mon Dec 17, 2012 09:38 am

I think alot of it is having riders coached and monitored by proper in team coaches rather than the traditional way of riders doing their own things perhaps with their own outside of team coach. No doubt having a coach will help even experienced riders, but having a coach within the team planning training around the important races for the team is not just a marginal gain in my eyes, that is a fairly major gain.

I have read Bradley did about 50:50 of endurance and high intensity stuff in his build up to 2012, how that is broken down, and when each takes precident over the other will be based around his targetted events.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:45 am

danowat wrote:I don't think they are doing anything special or secret, I just think they are tieing it together better, the total is more than a sum of it's parts etc.

Psychological warfare is pretty important in sport (heck, it's rife in amateur sport!), hence all the BS.


That is the line they would have everyone accept. It could be the case, I was surprised by how haphazard things were in cycling. From recent testimony and events it is clear even the best organised teams were pretty shambolic. I had assumed things were so much more organized in pro cycling, could it be the obsession with drugs caused massive underachievement and minimal progress in training methods?

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:59 am

Trev The Rev wrote:I was surprised by how haphazard things were in cycling. From recent testimony and events it is clear even the best organised teams were pretty shambolic.

I'm surprised that you're surprised.

For many squads for most of the sport's history, the word professional related to the fact that riders/and some staff were paid and sponsors were involved, and not a statement on the concept of professionalism.

There are many local amateur sporting teams in other sports that are far more professional than any cycling outfit.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:18 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I was surprised by how haphazard things were in cycling. From recent testimony and events it is clear even the best organised teams were pretty shambolic.

I'm surprised that you're surprised.

For many squads for most of the sport's history, the word professional related to the fact that riders/and some staff were paid and sponsors were involved, and not a statement on the concept of professionalism.

There are many local amateur sporting teams in other sports that are far more professional than any cycling outfit.


Yes true. The more I think about it the more I am surprised by how my assumptions about how pro teams operated were so far off the mark. I had assumed all pro teams or at least the biggest and most successful were run along the lines Sky is.

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ShockedSoShocked
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby ShockedSoShocked » Mon Dec 17, 2012 15:56 pm

Just because the science exists to support certain approaches doesn't mean athletes, especially endurance athletes, actually understand it, let alone apply it. Sky seem to be the first team to totally embrace it. Last season even people on here were cynical about Sky warming down even, next thing the whole pro-peloton is doing it.

Most endurance athletes are happy to listen to and follow what someone a generation older did, that may have worked for them at that time, but still treat it like gospel now. Prime example, go buy yourself a Dave Lloyd training program that'll be unique to your needs and utilise the most up to date sports science ;)
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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Mon Dec 17, 2012 21:41 pm

Some things are evidence based, but many others are dressed up in science sounding talk but may not really have much evidence of their efficacy.

This is not a problem confined to the world of cycling, but to life in general.

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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby briantrumpet » Mon Dec 17, 2012 21:52 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:[...] but many others are dressed up in science sounding talk but may not really have much evidence of their efficacy.

Good job we don't get any of that here on BR.

Murr X
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Murr X » Tue Dec 18, 2012 19:31 pm

ShockedSoShocked wrote:Just because the science exists to support certain approaches doesn't mean athletes, especially endurance athletes, actually understand it, let alone apply it. Sky seem to be the first team to totally embrace it. Last season even people on here were cynical about Sky warming down even, next thing the whole pro-peloton is doing it.

Most endurance athletes are happy to listen to and follow what someone a generation older did, that may have worked for them at that time, but still treat it like gospel now. Prime example, go buy yourself a Dave Lloyd training program that'll be unique to your needs and utilise the most up to date sports science ;)

You are 100% correct and there is a great deal of truth in this, especially the bits referring to endurance athletes.

Much (though not all) of the problem is that many simply do not have/use the means to track progress adequately meaning they have no idea of what best works for them (yet will confidently think they are onto something - without having viable means to know).

In relation to non endurance athletes, say weightlifters for example physical progress is easily measured and seen, with this advantage adjustments can be easily made and "professionalism" has traditionally been higher than in endurance sports.

With the advent of powermeters there are no excuses for a cyclist to train blindly anymore and it does not take long to find out that old traditions are seldom the most effective.

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Herbsman
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Herbsman » Tue Dec 18, 2012 21:57 pm

Murr X wrote:it does not take long to find out that old traditions are seldom the most effective.

For example?

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 19, 2012 09:52 am

Herbsman wrote:
Murr X wrote:it does not take long to find out that old traditions are seldom the most effective.

For example?



Old traditions were new and cutting edge back in the past. Today's cutting edge methods are just as likely to be proved bunkum in the future.

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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby okgo » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:01 am

Herbsman wrote:
Murr X wrote:it does not take long to find out that old traditions are seldom the most effective.

For example?


Have a read of the Tom Simpson book, some of the stuff they did because they thought it was right was totally mental. And I don't just mean the boozing and drugs etc.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:21 am

okgo wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Murr X wrote:it does not take long to find out that old traditions are seldom the most effective.

For example?


Have a read of the Tom Simpson book, some of the stuff they did because they thought it was right was totally mental. And I don't just mean the boozing and drugs etc.


They still went remarkably fast so some of what they did must have worked.

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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby lochindaal » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:00 pm

They still went remarkably fast so some of what they did must have worked.


If you had the time to train all day every day you could probably go remarkably fast as well. It doesn't mean you are performing to the best of your ability though.

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bompington
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby bompington » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:08 pm

I heard that the secret of their success was obsessive use of power meters ;-)

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 19, 2012 13:36 pm

lochindaal wrote:
They still went remarkably fast so some of what they did must have worked.


If you had the time to train all day every day you could probably go remarkably fast as well. It doesn't mean you are performing to the best of your ability though.


Don't see the hour record get broken often these days. As for the Catford Hill Climb, they went as fast in the 1960s and faster in the 1980s on heavier bikes.

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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 19, 2012 13:59 pm

bompington wrote:I heard that the secret of their success was obsessive use of power meters ;-)


I'm told they don't even look at heart rate.

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ShockedSoShocked
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby ShockedSoShocked » Wed Dec 19, 2012 17:45 pm

bompington wrote:I heard that the secret of their success was obsessive use of power meters ;-)


I don't even know why it needs the winky face, as it's quite possible with Sky this is the case. If you have the funds behind you to pay for the analysis of all the data and constant testing like Sky do then why not? If you're going to embrace the scientific approach in the same way Brailsford has on the track you may as well go the whole hog.
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Scrumple
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Scrumple » Wed Dec 19, 2012 18:01 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
bompington wrote:I heard that the secret of their success was obsessive use of power meters ;-)


I'm told they don't even look at heart rate.


Heart rate zones change slightly due to loads of factors - food / coffee / weather...

Power is a constant.


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