Sky - what training are they really doing?

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Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Dec 21, 2012 14:28 pm

bahzob wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:The average club cyclist might, a lot of coaches will, and a lot of coaches won't.


Still waiting to hear what makes you qualified to have an opinion on this subject.


I answered you in a question on another thread.

Murr X
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Murr X » Fri Dec 21, 2012 19:22 pm

ShockedSoShocked wrote:If we're talking about a sport that is practically completely ignorant to modern sports science/training practices then that is swimming.

This has always been my experience when it comes to the majority of competitive swimmers and coaches I know and have spoken with, it is a culture within the sport to knock up high volumes without apparent reason. Cycling is still like that for many but the advent of powermeters which encouraged critical thinking and more specific methods changed this notion completely for many.

ShockedSoShocked wrote:training 2 hours morning and evening doing things that aren't remotely relevant to competing in a 50 or 100m event. Even your average club level cyclist will more than likely have a better grasp of training techniques.

Yes, spot on. I will add what you are probably aware of which is the habit of swimmers to get up out of their beds very early in the morning to train when restful sleep at that time is probably the better option for performance.

Murr X

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Herbsman
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Herbsman » Fri Dec 21, 2012 19:35 pm

okgo wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Murr X wrote:it does not take long to find out that old traditions are seldom the most effective.

For example?


Have a read of the Tom Simpson book, some of the stuff they did because they thought it was right was totally mental. And I don't just mean the boozing and drugs etc.

Which one?

okgo
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby okgo » Fri Dec 21, 2012 19:39 pm

Put me back on my bike
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

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Herbsman
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Herbsman » Fri Dec 21, 2012 19:43 pm

I've read that. All I can remember is eating steak, and not drinking water.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Fri Dec 21, 2012 22:44 pm

bahzob wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:The average club cyclist might, a lot of coaches will, and a lot of coaches won't.


Still waiting to hear what makes you qualified to have an opinion on this subject.


Just a comment in general and not directed specifically at anyone here because this crops up every so often.

While qualifications/experience certainly have their place in assessing the credibility of someone's opinion or statements, it can be a slippery surface to argue from*. It's generally far more "powerful" to focus on the validity or otherwise of the content of what one says/writes. Certainly that's a debating position that will hold one in good stead most of the time.

That's not to say that some don't have a track record of quality contributions (and hence we tend to be more favourably disposed to listen to them and not question their validity), or of frequently writing nonsense (and so we tend over time to apply a strong filter to their latest contributions), but even so, each statement/claim does need to be considered on its individual merits. Removing our biases when debating isn't easy. And if someone rubs you the wrong way (legitimately or not), then we lose sight of the purpose of the debate^.


* known as argumentum ad verecundiam

^ which clearly is to prove I'm right and you're wrong, so there :P :lol:

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sat Dec 22, 2012 09:39 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
bahzob wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:The average club cyclist might, a lot of coaches will, and a lot of coaches won't.


Still waiting to hear what makes you qualified to have an opinion on this subject.


Just a comment in general and not directed specifically at anyone here because this crops up every so often.

While qualifications/experience certainly have their place in assessing the credibility of someone's opinion or statements, it can be a slippery surface to argue from*. It's generally far more "powerful" to focus on the validity or otherwise of the content of what one says/writes. Certainly that's a debating position that will hold one in good stead most of the time.

That's not to say that some don't have a track record of quality contributions (and hence we tend to be more favourably disposed to listen to them and not question their validity), or of frequently writing nonsense (and so we tend over time to apply a strong filter to their latest contributions), but even so, each statement/claim does need to be considered on its individual merits. Removing our biases when debating isn't easy. And if someone rubs you the wrong way (legitimately or not), then we lose sight of the purpose of the debate^.


* known as argumentum ad verecundiam

^ which clearly is to prove I'm right and you're wrong, so there :P :lol:


Well said. I'm sure most readers on here if not most posters can easily work out the difference between a serious post and a deliberate bit of nonsense.

NewTTer
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby NewTTer » Sat Dec 22, 2012 09:47 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
bahzob wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:The average club cyclist might, a lot of coaches will, and a lot of coaches won't.


Still waiting to hear what makes you qualified to have an opinion on this subject.


Just a comment in general and not directed specifically at anyone here because this crops up every so often.

While qualifications/experience certainly have their place in assessing the credibility of someone's opinion or statements, it can be a slippery surface to argue from*. It's generally far more "powerful" to focus on the validity or otherwise of the content of what one says/writes. Certainly that's a debating position that will hold one in good stead most of the time.

That's not to say that some don't have a track record of quality contributions (and hence we tend to be more favourably disposed to listen to them and not question their validity), or of frequently writing nonsense (and so we tend over time to apply a strong filter to their latest contributions), but even so, each statement/claim does need to be considered on its individual merits. Removing our biases when debating isn't easy. And if someone rubs you the wrong way (legitimately or not), then we lose sight of the purpose of the debate^.


* known as argumentum ad verecundiam

^ which clearly is to prove I'm right and you're wrong, so there :P :lol:


Well said. I'm sure most readers on here if not most posters can easily work out the difference between a serious post and a deliberate bit of nonsense.

Of course they can Trev, otherwise everyone would believe the utter tripe that you are constantly posting, as it is we are all more than aware that you are just a twisted sociopath

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Herbsman
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Herbsman » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:34 am

Give it a rest. You come across as worse than he pretends to be.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sat Dec 22, 2012 13:53 pm

Does anyone here know what training Sky really do then?

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Sat Dec 22, 2012 23:01 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:Does anyone here know what training Sky really do then?

Hunter Allen has been spending time with them on training camp over the past week or so, bringing their knowledge of training with power up a notch or two.

NewTTer
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby NewTTer » Sun Dec 23, 2012 07:14 am

Herbsman wrote:Give it a rest. You come across as worse than he pretends to be.

Ergo you too by posting this, so "give it a rest"

Maglia
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Maglia » Sun Dec 23, 2012 09:23 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:Does anyone here know what training Sky really do then?

Hunter Allen has been spending time with them on training camp over the past week or so, bringing their knowledge of training with power up a notch or two.


I'm not sure that's entirely true Alex, wasn't he mainly there due to his role as Ian Boswell's coach?

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Dec 23, 2012 09:46 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:Does anyone here know what training Sky really do then?

Hunter Allen has been spending time with them on training camp over the past week or so, bringing their knowledge of training with power up a notch or two.


And helping them understand how to use heart rate and cadence data as well as power and quadrant analysis.

Asker Juekendrup has also been working with them this year, no doubt passing on all he knows about the goings on at Rabobank. Seeing as Asker was at Rabobank with the doctor, Geert Leinders (who Brailsford now admits should never have been taken on) and wrote a book with him, should Sky be working with Juekendrup?

No doubt Asker's vast knowledge of exactly what endurance athletes should be putting into their bodies, and when, is invaluable. Since Asker became Global Senior Director of the Gatorade Sports Science Institute (GSSI) at PepsiCo, he has been very busy working on changing the formula of Gatorade products. I am not sure what changes have been made though.

http://www.cyclingne...rabobank-doping


Sky really should not have touched anyone with links to Rabobank with a barge pole.

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Team4Luke
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Team4Luke » Mon Dec 24, 2012 15:52 pm

Scrumple wrote:
Heart rate zones change slightly due to loads of factors - food / coffee / weather...

Power is a constant.



no they don't. These factors would have to be very extreme to have any noticeable change in beat ratio. And they affect power too. :roll:
Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Tue Dec 25, 2012 00:05 am

Maglia wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:Does anyone here know what training Sky really do then?

Hunter Allen has been spending time with them on training camp over the past week or so, bringing their knowledge of training with power up a notch or two.


I'm not sure that's entirely true Alex, wasn't he mainly there due to his role as Ian Boswell's coach?

Well we'd have to ask Hunter of course but he did put up some pics of him round a table talking with Sky riders and demonstrating stuff in a presentation with WKO+. Hunter say's he's doing an article for ROAD magazine about it. So I guess we can read about it there (not that I get that mag).

gavbarron
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby gavbarron » Tue Dec 25, 2012 04:59 am

Team4Luke wrote:
Scrumple wrote:
Heart rate zones change slightly due to loads of factors - food / coffee / weather...

Power is a constant.



no they don't. These factors would have to be very extreme to have any noticeable change in beat ratio. And they affect power too. :roll:


Well, actually they can, food eaten too close to exercise can affect hr as blood is diverted to digestion whereas it would not be if eaten earlier, weather not so much although extreme heat can raise hr, working in the Middle East I notice a considerable difference in hr/pace when training early hours compared to mid day sun. The biggest affect on hr though (other than fatigue or illness) would probably be level of hydration though, as we dehydrate we begin to see cardiac drift which can affect the quality of your session if you train off hr and don't hydrate properly

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:12 pm

Paying attention to your breathing will tell you more about your 'effort' than heart rate. You are always aware of your breathing but heart rate is something you can't 'feel' whilst riding. Well you might feel it sometimes when you stop or start coasting after a very hard effort.

lawrences
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby lawrences » Sat Dec 29, 2012 16:19 pm

^What a load of total BS.

Your whole theory turns to shoot at altitude... I really do wonder where you pull some of the stuff you say in your posts from.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Sky - what training are they really doing?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sat Dec 29, 2012 17:42 pm

lawrences wrote:^What a load of total BS.

Your whole theory turns to shoot at altitude... I really do wonder where you pull some of the stuff you say in your posts from.

Not trained at altitude since 1987. Don't remember feeling my heart whilst running, but do remember heart rate taking longer to drop to normal when I stopped. Also remember being surprised how little altitude affected me. I expected to find it more difficult.


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