Measured improvement?

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Trev The Rev
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby Trev The Rev » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:56 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
danowat wrote:
bahzob wrote:If you have a power meter one fairly accurate test is a max 3 minute effort. The power on for this will correlate quite closely to your MAP


Really?

It'll be in the ballpark, but I'd suggest something longer than 3-minutes for most people, unless you are specifically interested in ~3-min performance (e.g. goal event is shorter pursuits).

3-min power has the complicating factor of having a substantial anaerobic energy contribution (~25-35%) and so underlying aerobic fitness change may be more or less than the change in 3-min power (or steep climb speed) might indicate. Hence it's better to (also) have a longer effort where possible, as that will more reliably indicate aerobic fitness changes.


I would have thought some athletes would have an even more substantial anaerobic contribution than that? Is the 35% the ceiling even for a predominantly fast twitch athlete?

RChung
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby RChung » Thu Dec 20, 2012 16:13 pm

antfly wrote:Whoever he is if he has something informative to add he should say it..


1. I am Robert Chung
2. I am an arsehole.
3. I did add something informative: that your statements are not well thought-out and, therefore, readers should wonder whether you're a reliable source of information.

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antfly
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby antfly » Thu Dec 20, 2012 17:20 pm

1. If you say so
2. Most probably, isn't everyone..
3. Being condescending isn't the same as being helpful and informative.
Smarter than the average bear.

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Herbsman
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby Herbsman » Thu Dec 20, 2012 20:05 pm

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think he was being condescending ...

bahzob
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby bahzob » Thu Dec 20, 2012 20:44 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
danowat wrote:
bahzob wrote:If you have a power meter one fairly accurate test is a max 3 minute effort. The power on for this will correlate quite closely to your MAP


Really?

It'll be in the ballpark, but I'd suggest something longer than 3-minutes for most people, unless you are specifically interested in ~3-min performance (e.g. goal event is shorter pursuits).

3-min power has the complicating factor of having a substantial anaerobic energy contribution (~25-35%) and so underlying aerobic fitness change may be more or less than the change in 3-min power (or steep climb speed) might indicate. Hence it's better to (also) have a longer effort where possible, as that will more reliably indicate aerobic fitness changes.


Fair comment. 3 mins is certainly the least you should do. I was bearing in mind the hills in England, many of which are short and not especially steep.

So yes the longer the hill the better.

bahzob
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby bahzob » Thu Dec 20, 2012 21:04 pm

antfly wrote:
OK, it will have to be the hill method then, although I suspect heart rate does have something to do with fitness.


Yes HR has a lot to do with fitness.

As your fitness improves then you will be able to sustain the same power for less HR or do greater power for the same HR. Also your HR will rise less quickly as you increase load and recover more quickly as you stop effort and recover.

Also you will be able to sustain a steady pace with less drift. If you maintain a constant pace/power then HR will still increase over time. If you are unfit this increase may be considerable, as you become fitter it will become less.

HR will also correspond to perceived effort. I find for example that there are a number of pinch points in terms of pain if I do a ramp up from cold to max effort and these tend to appear at pretty much the same points in terms of HR.

However none of this will tell you if you are improving or not. You can only judge this if you have an independent measure, power being the best, speed in controlled conditions being an adequate substitute.

Say your HR is 170 and things really start to hurt.When you are unfit this may happen after doing 20 mins at 20mph. As you get fitter it will hurt just as much and your HR will still be around 170 but you will have done 20 mins at 25mph by then.

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antfly
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby antfly » Thu Dec 20, 2012 21:32 pm

Thanks, that's pretty much what I thought. So if you are riding the same route in similar conditions, then, speed and heart rate are a good indicator of fitness.
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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Thu Dec 20, 2012 22:25 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:I would have thought some athletes would have an even more substantial anaerobic contribution than that? Is the 35% the ceiling even for a predominantly fast twitch athlete?

It's just a range to give an idea of the magnitude, not a limit. Even a kilo TT has a substantial aerobic contribution (close to half).

The following chart gives a indicator of what's typical:

Image

It is possible to assess the relative contribution of aerobic and anaerobic energy production by inspecting a power file from a well paced pursuit like effort. You can read about that in the book Training & Racing with a Power Meter, pp 244-248 (2nd edition).

I have a blog item about it as well:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2011/ ... wabac.html

Trev The Rev
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:03 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I would have thought some athletes would have an even more substantial anaerobic contribution than that? Is the 35% the ceiling even for a predominantly fast twitch athlete?

It's just a range to give an idea of the magnitude, not a limit. Even a kilo TT has a substantial aerobic contribution (close to half).

The following chart gives a indicator of what's typical:

Image

It is possible to assess the relative contribution of aerobic and anaerobic energy production by inspecting a power file from a well paced pursuit like effort. You can read about that in the book Training & Racing with a Power Meter, pp 244-248 (2nd edition).

I have a blog item about it as well:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2011/ ... wabac.html


Alex,

Thanks for this. I think in the past back in the 1980s this was not so well understood. I read in the Training & Racing with a Power Meter how 2 pursuiters of similar ability had very different aerobic / anaerobic balances.

Trev.

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nevman
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby nevman » Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:08 pm

Thought so-there doesnt seem to be much agreement over measured performance does there but for me it is important this winter.I will be training for the Marmotte and LEL next year so I would benefit from knowing how I am doing through this horrible weather.Like most I dont have or justify a powermeter,just a Garmin 500 with cadence/hrm-team mates arent that reliable as some ride hard through winter and others tail off so I cant measure against them.TTs are not until April so its club rides,chaingangs and turbo-seems the long hill measurement might be the nearest I can get to a reading that will indicate fitness.Thanks everyone.
Any more tips appreciated of course.
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JGSI
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby JGSI » Fri Dec 21, 2012 14:57 pm

You have goals but quite different:
1 - very long endurance
2 - alpine endurance

You have demonstrated a 'chaotic' approach at the moment - TTs.. chaingangs.. winter rides.. turbo

Get yourself some structure and clarity and prioritise the events as they are so different.
Either buy it in with a coach or research some structured training plans.

You can do both events with a huge amount of willpower but if you want to do them well then bear in mind the above.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Measured improvement?

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Fri Dec 21, 2012 22:20 pm

nevman wrote:Any more tips appreciated of course.

Keep an eye out for a working used Powertap wheel and CPU and hook up on your indoor trainer. I'd say you could probably find one on ebay for about the same as some spend on their Garmin. Would be more useful as a training aid. Sometimes Bob at cyclepowermeters.com sells his ex-hire units. Can also consider hiring.


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