Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

General bike chat that does not fit elsewhere

If you had £3000 to spend on a bike which option would you prefer?

Cervelo R5
34
41%
Cannondale Supersix
19
23%
Custom Frame
15
18%
None of the above - You can do better than the above!
13
16%
None of the above - You are wasting your money!
2
2%
 
Total votes: 83

Stu517
Posts: 35
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Stu517 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 08:59 am

R5 all the way!

I have had mine for a couple of weeks now, and really pleased with both the frame and the overall build and spec.

I was skeptical at first about how good a top frame would be but trust me it is outstanding!!

Markwb79
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Markwb79 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 14:50 pm

Sorry to quote something from page one when I havent read pages 2 to 6, but thought this to be very interesting.

Legend_UK wrote:If you as a rider need a made to measure frame then riding a stock frame with fixed geometry and design will always be a compromise. From our data over 50% of the customers we see Bio Mechanically require a custom frame. The problem is very few people know how to "Bike Fit" correctly. In essence the bike is made to fit YOU and not you trying to fit on the bike. [What is really shocking is that over 35% are on the wrong size bike, stock or custom!]

Do not believe everything you read [that goes for everything, especially on the net, 80% of information on here is rubbish] journalists, sales staff etc.. will always have other agendas when it comes to recommending what they wish "us" to buy, more so today than ever before, the world is run by big corporations and we are just the pawns in their game.

Scott Addict 2011
Giant TCR 2012

Zeno
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Zeno » Tue Nov 20, 2012 18:01 pm

Hi All, I was searching and cam accross this great debate,I personally voted for Legend as I do have one, I dont think the argument should be about whats wrong or right! each for his own, I am sure Canyon do great bikes! however for me a custom frame is a special one, I had the Viner Maxima made to measure and then got the Legend when found out about the real person who made it[Marco Bertoletti]
and I can honestly say it is special, I have ridden other bikes, I had a Time vxrs and Time RXR Ulteam and tested Specialized and Cannondale, for me they were too stiff and hard. the Legend is unique in that it handles really well and feels just right, but then I am biased.

here is a link on why a custom bike can make a difference tested by journalist work for this very website:
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... a-08-28906

cheers,

Legend_UK
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Wed Nov 21, 2012 07:53 am

meesterbond wrote:A couple of thoughts...

I'm still not convinced on the bio-mechanical advantages of a custom fit bike. From a fit perspective, there are surely only three points of contact, so provided you can replicate the distances and angles of that triangle, the bike will fit. The post back on page one or two which seemed to imply that 50% of the population needed a custom frame from a fit perspective, seems at odds with this. Provided you start with something close, you can get to the exact measurement through stem and saddle adjustments. What am I missing here?

Secondly, I know that by buying a Cervelo I'm subsidising their sponsorship of Garmin and thus, in some small way, the sport I love. Due to the messed up way the sport is run, it needs business sponsorship to continue so I have no problem with that. Without the lives of Sky, Quickstep Flooring, Cervelo etc etc, there would be no professional bike racing.


Yes there is more to this than meets the eye, it is not correct to state that you can achieve the same contact points by changing the accessories on the frame. This assumes there is no issue with the spec' of the accessories being used e.g. 14cm stem on a frame with a 53cm top tube, or a 9cm stem on a frame with a 56cm [or more] top tube, both of these examples are technically not correct, in some combinations we have seen actually dangerous. I.e. Take the relationship between stem & top tube, having a too shorter stem on a larger frame will create a massive under-steer issue for the bike, when breaking at high speed as you approach that hairpin which turns out to be a lot steeper than first thought, you will not be able to steer the bike correctly.

How times have we, seen road bikes with a "sky scraper" of stack headset spacers under the stem, [instead of having the right head tube height] past a certain mm of stack this is a big issue as it overloads the fork steerer column.

If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.

Some riders can take a stock frame and match the correct component set up to gain their position, but not everyone one. You can compromise away from perfect, within the correct technical limits, however there is a "Perfect" fit, one which has you the rider are 100% dialled in, in tune with your bike, with the PERFECT stem length, seat pin extension, saddle set back etc... when you get on this bike, YOUR perfect bike your real cycling experience will have just started. I remember when mine did, I took 20 min off my usual 3 hr circuit, went down the hills as the bike was on rails, when up using at least one sprocket down the block, the 50*34 made way for the 52*36.

There are so many combinations and variables between frame design, frame size, fit, bike set up, bike fitting and custom frame design may seem easy/simple, but it is a real art.

Speaking to the rider who started this thread yesterday and other customers it is clear that there is a lot of confusion as to where to get your bike fitting carried out. If you are looking for the very best in this field then go and see Giuseppe Giannecchini, he comes over to the UK each month to run a fitting clinic in London, you can find more info at www.velosolutions.com we have been working with him now for more than 5 years. From the number of miracles he has carried out I am sure he works in the Vatican when he goes home!

Legend_UK
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Wed Nov 21, 2012 08:15 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Well I am not going to talk about buying a custom bike in relation to another brand which I am not qualified to talk about am I ? plus the fact a Legend made to measure frame is made to Legend's standards, which is not the same as another builder. The person who made this post asked me direction questions in relation to Legend, not another brand. If you do not like what you read then I suggest you read something else.


Why not? Isn't the question Cervelo v Cannondale v Custom Frame? OK the OP first post mentions Legend, but I still don't see why you or anyone else can explain to me why I should buy a custom bike.

Legend_UK wrote: Cervelo or Cannondale

Legend_UK wrote:It is obvious you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, as I said before Legend is not for everyone.


Am I? Becuase I think your offer is really an advert and shouldn't be on the forum?
Legend_UK wrote: There you go again, I do not agree with you, I am not writing an advert I am replying to questions that are being asked of me, if you do not like it then you can chose not to read.

Legend_UK wrote:That is NOT what I wrote. It is not within the scope of a forum to reply to a general open ended question like this.


Yes, I know it's not what you wrote. But it doesn't really help if you can't explain why a custom bike is so good.

Legend_UK
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Wed Nov 21, 2012 08:32 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Well I am not going to talk about buying a custom bike in relation to another brand which I am not qualified to talk about am I ? plus the fact a Legend made to measure frame is made to Legend's standards, which is not the same as another builder. The person who made this post asked me direction questions in relation to Legend, not another brand. If you do not like what you read then I suggest you read something else.


Why not? Isn't the question Cervelo v Cannondale v Custom Frame? OK the OP first post mentions Legend, but I still don't see why you or anyone else can explain to me why I should buy a custom bike.

Legend_UK wrote:It is obvious you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, as I said before Legend is not for everyone.


Am I? Becuase I think your offer is really an advert and shouldn't be on the forum?

Legend_UK wrote:That is NOT what I wrote. It is not within the scope of a forum to reply to a general open ended question like this.


Yes, I know it's not what you wrote. But it doesn't really help if you can't explain why a custom bike is so good.


[quote="Legend_UK"]
Better still do not take my word for it, take the words of one ex Pro...

JUST UNBELIEVABLY , OUT OF THIS WORLD , EXCELLENCE !!

SPEECHLESS WITH THE WAY IT HANDLES ....... NOTHING COMES CLOSE !!...

AND I'VE BEEN DOING THIS A BLOODY LONG TIME !

JUST BRILLIANT PETER... A BIKE TO BE PROUD OF

Comtat Cycling
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:02 pm

Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Comtat Cycling » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:29 am

Hi All

Just saw this thread and thought i would add my opinion on based on my experience. I had a cervelo r3sl for 2 years, i loved it, it was light, stiff etc... After I started Comtat i got to ride many different carbon bikes be it samples, other top end brands etc..there were good and bad and cervelo was one the best stock bikes i had ridden.
After working with carbon bikes for 2 years i became alot more educated and saw the industry from inside. It was an eye opener. During this time i learnt some important lessons

1) bike fitting is everything - i had 3 professional bike fittings over 3 years but i was still having problems on the bike until i saw Velo-solutions - Beppe sorted my problems out in 10 minutes and i haven't looked back since.

2) after the bike fitting i was introduced to custom made bikes, i had a legend custom made for me more out of intrigue than necessity ( i think i was the 1st in the uk to have one), it completely blew me away in terms of fit, performance and enjoyment. It opened my eyes as i always thought cervelo, look were the benchmarks in carbon bikes but how wrong and blinkered i had been, the performance was worlds apart from what i had previously experienced.

I was so blown away by the differences that i changed my business model from frames made in Asia to Handmade Italian Custom Bikes.

Hopefully while funds allow i will never go back to
a stock frame or a monocoque frame as i've enjoyed cycling so much more since having bikes made for me. I guess some of you might say not everyone can afford a custom frame but actually if in the market for a cervelo or cannondale then you can afford a custom frame/bike.

I have 3 test bikes in Shoreditch, London that are available for test rides if curiosity get's the better of you, they aren't made for you but you get a feel for what the instance differences are from a monocoque frame.

Legend and Comtat aren't the only custom made carbon bikes in the market, there are plenty of choices Parlee from bespoke, Cyfac from pretorius and wyndy milla - i would choose any of these other brands over mass produced bikes any day of the week as i know how they are made and the care and attention that goes into them.

I hope this helps whoever started this very long thread in the first place make their mind up.

saprkzz
Posts: 552
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 20:33 pm

Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby saprkzz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 13:30 pm

even after reading all these posts stating how good these legends and comtat (comtat?? "who the hell are they"....exactly" in the voice of the milk advert kids :lol: ) are..

I am still not convinced I could put my money into one of these over my R5,. The looks for me are 10 times better on stock production bikes, the bling factor, and also the bit that gets me, if the statment you have just made is that they perform so much better... i quote: "the performance was worlds apart from what i had previously experienced" then why dont all racey people race them, including the pro's down to elites etc... they have the money to blow on a custom frame surely?

AchillesLeftKnee
Posts: 710
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby AchillesLeftKnee » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:06 pm

Legend_UK wrote:Some riders can take a stock frame and match the correct component set up to gain their position, but not everyone one. You can compromise away from perfect, within the correct technical limits, however there is a "Perfect" fit, one which has you the rider are 100% dialled in, in tune with your bike, with the PERFECT stem length, seat pin extension, saddle set back etc... when you get on this bike, YOUR perfect bike your real cycling experience will have just started.

Quite simply, define perfect.
Mangeur

timmyflash
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby timmyflash » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:37 pm

Regarding the original question - Custom fit for sure.

I had Beppe fit me and draw up a design from scratch for a custom steel Feather (it's the t!ts). Ricky fitted me himself, but i thought for the amount i was spending on the frame i may as well try and make sure it was as precise as possible. Ricky's version of fitting was looking at me ride my old bike up and down the drive, noting what changes to position he would make. Taking measurements directly off the old bike and going from there. It may have been spot on, it may have given exactly the same outcome as the fitting from Beppe (i never got his measurements off him to compare), but i wanted the comfort of getting someone whose profession it was to do the fitting. Piece of mind really.

Finally got the bike built up last week. Have only had about 100k ride on it so far, and it still needs a couple of adjustments, but the difference in 'feel' is pretty significant, for the better i might add. True, i don't have an identical OTP size Feather that's been adjusted to fit me i can compare it against, but i'd be surprised if it felt like it handled as well.

Just to be clear, it is a higher spec bike than i've owned before (higher spec everything), so i guess it was always going to feel better, but having had the fit, it feels like that was the foundation that everything else was built on.

I've said 'feel' a lot - sorry about that..
Steel Blue Fixed - Orange Backpack Cover

How do i get a link to a photo in here?!

Fixeh

timmyflash
Posts: 479
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby timmyflash » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:41 pm

p.s. - yeahhhhh

Image
Steel Blue Fixed - Orange Backpack Cover



How do i get a link to a photo in here?!



Fixeh

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LegendLust
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby LegendLust » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:05 pm

timmyflash wrote:p.s. - yeahhhhh

Image



Very nice. Giuesppe must have made a difference because, even though I like Feather's, yours is the first I've seen without a stack of headset spacers!

The Feather bikes in last month's Cyclist looked terrible with all them spacers

Zeno
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Zeno » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:06 pm

saprkzz wrote:even after reading all these posts stating how good these legends and comtat (comtat?? "who the hell are they"....exactly" in the voice of the milk advert kids :lol: ) are..

I am still not convinced I could put my money into one of these over my R5,. The looks for me are 10 times better on stock production bikes, the bling factor, and also the bit that gets me, if the statment you have just made is that they perform so much better... i quote: "the performance was worlds apart from what i had previously experienced" then why dont all racey people race them, including the pro's down to elites etc... they have the money to blow on a custom frame surely?


I am not sure we can use the anolygy of " why Pro's dont use it", first its about sponsorship, they get paid to use x bike, common knowledge, second who said they dont?? plenty of Pros use special made frames painted by sponsor's colors, you heard the "ProtoType" term.

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LegendLust
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby LegendLust » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:07 pm

saprkzz wrote:even after reading all these posts stating how good these legends and comtat (comtat?? "who the hell are they"....exactly" in the voice of the milk advert kids :lol: ) are..

I am still not convinced I could put my money into one of these over my R5,. The looks for me are 10 times better on stock production bikes, the bling factor, and also the bit that gets me, if the statment you have just made is that they perform so much better... i quote: "the performance was worlds apart from what i had previously experienced" then why dont all racey people race them, including the pro's down to elites etc... they have the money to blow on a custom frame surely?


They do. Quite a few Pro's approach custom builders, including Marco at Legend, to build them custom frames. It's something that's happened for Donkey's years. Have a read of last month's Pro Cycling mag. There is a test of a Legend along with a little Q&A with Marco, who mentions making frames for current pro's.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:21 pm

Legend_UK wrote:Yes there is more to this than meets the eye, it is not correct to state that you can achieve the same contact points by changing the accessories on the frame. This assumes there is no issue with the spec' of the accessories being used e.g. 14cm stem on a frame with a 53cm top tube, or a 9cm stem on a frame with a 56cm [or more] top tube, both of these examples are technically not correct, in some combinations we have seen actually dangerous. I.e. Take the relationship between stem & top tube, having a too shorter stem on a larger frame will create a massive under-steer issue for the bike, when breaking at high speed as you approach that hairpin which turns out to be a lot steeper than first thought, you will not be able to steer the bike correctly.

How times have we, seen road bikes with a "sky scraper" of stack headset spacers under the stem, [instead of having the right head tube height] past a certain mm of stack this is a big issue as it overloads the fork steerer column.

If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.


Confused. Why couldn't you have posted something like that when I asked you to on the previous page instead of just saying it's to complicated or you have to write a book! Don't agree with what your saying completely, but this does go some way to explain why some people might be better off with a custom built bike.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:27 pm

Legend_UK wrote:Better still do not take my word for it, take the words of one ex Pro...

JUST UNBELIEVABLY , OUT OF THIS WORLD , EXCELLENCE !!

SPEECHLESS WITH THE WAY IT HANDLES ....... NOTHING COMES CLOSE !!...

AND I'VE BEEN DOING THIS A BLOODY LONG TIME !

JUST BRILLIANT PETER... A BIKE TO BE PROUD OF


I don't put a huge amount of weight to someone's comments about their own bikes. People rarely give a proper appraisal. If other people do then that's fair enough. But I'm really not interested in what a manufacturer says a customer thinks about their bikes.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:35 pm

Comtat Cycling wrote:1) bike fitting is everything - i had 3 professional bike fittings over 3 years but i was still having problems on the bike until i saw Velo-solutions - Beppe sorted my problems out in 10 minutes and i haven't looked back since.


Don't think anyone would disagree with that, a good bike fitting is a good idea, althought there are plenty of good companies in this country who can do it. In face, a good bike shop should be able to do it.

Comtat Cycling wrote:2) after the bike fitting i was introduced to custom made bikes, i had a legend custom made for me more out of intrigue than necessity ( i think i was the 1st in the uk to have one), it completely blew me away in terms of fit, performance and enjoyment. It opened my eyes as i always thought cervelo, look were the benchmarks in carbon bikes but how wrong and blinkered i had been, the performance was worlds apart from what i had previously experienced.

I was so blown away by the differences that i changed my business model from frames made in Asia to Handmade Italian Custom Bikes.

Hopefully while funds allow i will never go back to
a stock frame or a monocoque frame as i've enjoyed cycling so much more since having bikes made for me. I guess some of you might say not everyone can afford a custom frame but actually if in the market for a cervelo or cannondale then you can afford a custom frame/bike.

I have 3 test bikes in Shoreditch, London that are available for test rides if curiosity get's the better of you, they aren't made for you but you get a feel for what the instance differences are from a monocoque frame.

Legend and Comtat aren't the only custom made carbon bikes in the market, there are plenty of choices Parlee from bespoke, Cyfac from pretorius and wyndy milla - i would choose any of these other brands over mass produced bikes any day of the week as i know how they are made and the care and attention that goes into them.


Have I got this right, you own Comtat, but ride a Legend? Comtat must be good then!

Hmm, hold on a mo, I wonder who makes Comtat?

Comtat Cycling wrote:I hope this helps whoever started this very long thread in the first place make their mind up.


Oh, it's never that simple! :wink:

Zeno
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Zeno » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:43 pm

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Yes there is more to this than meets the eye, it is not correct to state that you can achieve the same contact points by changing the accessories on the frame. This assumes there is no issue with the spec' of the accessories being used e.g. 14cm stem on a frame with a 53cm top tube, or a 9cm stem on a frame with a 56cm [or more] top tube, both of these examples are technically not correct, in some combinations we have seen actually dangerous. I.e. Take the relationship between stem & top tube, having a too shorter stem on a larger frame will create a massive under-steer issue for the bike, when breaking at high speed as you approach that hairpin which turns out to be a lot steeper than first thought, you will not be able to steer the bike correctly.

How times have we, seen road bikes with a "sky scraper" of stack headset spacers under the stem, [instead of having the right head tube height] past a certain mm of stack this is a big issue as it overloads the fork steerer column.

If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.


Confused. Why couldn't you have posted something like that when I asked you to on the previous page instead of just saying it's to complicated or you have to write a book! Don't agree with what your saying completely, but this does go some way to explain why some people might be better off with a custom built bike.


Sorry can I just say that It doesn't seem like any answer will make sense to you or satisfy youl! you don't seem convinced or wanting to take onboard of what others say about custom frames, sadly it is something one has to try, all Pro custom bike fans tried to demonstrate times and times and you keep repeating yourself.

if its not for you I think you should just leave it, there is penalty for not wanting it :)

Cheers,

meesterbond
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby meesterbond » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:49 pm

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Yes there is more to this than meets the eye, it is not correct to state that you can achieve the same contact points by changing the accessories on the frame. This assumes there is no issue with the spec' of the accessories being used e.g. 14cm stem on a frame with a 53cm top tube, or a 9cm stem on a frame with a 56cm [or more] top tube, both of these examples are technically not correct, in some combinations we have seen actually dangerous. I.e. Take the relationship between stem & top tube, having a too shorter stem on a larger frame will create a massive under-steer issue for the bike, when breaking at high speed as you approach that hairpin which turns out to be a lot steeper than first thought, you will not be able to steer the bike correctly.

How times have we, seen road bikes with a "sky scraper" of stack headset spacers under the stem, [instead of having the right head tube height] past a certain mm of stack this is a big issue as it overloads the fork steerer column.

If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.


Confused. Why couldn't you have posted something like that when I asked you to on the previous page instead of just saying it's to complicated or you have to write a book! Don't agree with what your saying completely, but this does go some way to explain why some people might be better off with a custom built bike.



Although I think it misses the point rather... my original question assumed that at the very least you were riding a frame that was pretty close to being the right size. If you've got a 140mm stem on 53cm bike you either bought the wrong bike, or you're Ryder Hesjedal. Same as running a 60mm stem on a 60cm frame... you bought the wrong bike.
Both situations can be solved by buying the right size and geometry to begin with and then tailoring it slightly with some small adjustments to stem, crank, saddle, seatpost etc.

From our data over 50% of the customers we see Bio Mechanically require a custom frame


Really? Half of the people you see could not buy an 'off the peg' frame and get it to fit... Or could they not buy a Legend ''off the peg' frame (if such a thing exists) and get it to fit?

I'm sure there are plenty of benefits to custom made frames and I'm sure one day I'll end up buying one, but I still think the whole fit question is overplayed.

saprkzz
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby saprkzz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:50 pm

Nah - its not all about sponsership is it?..

if its not for you I think you should just leave it, there is penalty for not wanting it


Marginal Gains - Team sky, they did ok'ish on their 'rellos :lol:


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