Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

General bike chat that does not fit elsewhere

If you had £3000 to spend on a bike which option would you prefer?

Cervelo R5
34
41%
Cannondale Supersix
19
23%
Custom Frame
15
18%
None of the above - You can do better than the above!
13
16%
None of the above - You are wasting your money!
2
2%
 
Total votes: 83

Comtat Cycling
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Comtat Cycling » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:54 pm

Dear Greasedscotmans

Of course I ride a Comtat, i always have, currently they are made By Bertoletti. I've owned a legend too be it a few years ago now and i've also owned a few big named moncoque frames and ridden many more. The reason why i've even bothered to post here is that I feel passionately about custom frames as i've seen the difference it makes and i've yet to hear one of my customers say otherwise. The fact that quite a few people on the forum seem quick to shoot down a custom option when they know nothing about it seems a bit harsh.
Your question regarding bike fitting, there are very few people in the UK are full time professional bio-mechanics. In fact i can't think of anyone currently. Can you?

I guess only if you go through the process will everyone understand about the fitting and also test ride a handmade frame then you will understand what some of the people on this thread are talking about.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:58 pm

Zeno wrote:Sorry can I just say that It doesn't seem like any answer will make sense to you or satisfy youl! you don't seem convinced or wanting to take onboard of what others say about custom frames, sadly it is something one has to try, all Pro custom bike fans tried to demonstrate times and times and you keep repeating yourself.

if its not for you I think you should just leave it, there is penalty for not wanting it :)

Cheers,


Ehh? I have a custom frame? Have you not read this thread?

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 16:12 pm

meesterbond wrote:Although I think it misses the point rather... my original question assumed that at the very least you were riding a frame that was pretty close to being the right size. If you've got a 140mm stem on 53cm bike you either bought the wrong bike, or you're Ryder Hesjedal. Same as running a 60mm stem on a 60cm frame... you bought the wrong bike.
Both situations can be solved by buying the right size and geometry to begin with and then tailoring it slightly with some small adjustments to stem, crank, saddle, seatpost etc.

From our data over 50% of the customers we see Bio Mechanically require a custom frame


Really? Half of the people you see could not buy an 'off the peg' frame and get it to fit... Or could they not buy a Legend ''off the peg' frame (if such a thing exists) and get it to fit?

I'm sure there are plenty of benefits to custom made frames and I'm sure one day I'll end up buying one, but I still think the whole fit question is overplayed.


Sure, I agree. I just don't understand why Legend couldn't explain why people needed a custom frame. And even if someone is running a huge headset stack, that doesn't mean that need a custom, it could mean a number of things. Could be the wrong size frame, could mean they have been badly fitted for it, could be they need a different off the peg frameset.

And I'm sure off the peg manufacturers have data that disagrees with Legends 50%!

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 22, 2012 16:23 pm

Comtat Cycling wrote:Dear Greasedscotmans

Of course I ride a Comtat, i always have, currently they are made By Bertoletti. I've owned a legend too be it a few years ago now and i've also owned a few big named moncoque frames and ridden many more. The reason why i've even bothered to post here is that I feel passionately about custom frames as i've seen the difference it makes and i've yet to hear one of my customers say otherwise. The fact that quite a few people on the forum seem quick to shoot down a custom option when they know nothing about it seems a bit harsh.
Your question regarding bike fitting, there are very few people in the UK are full time professional bio-mechanics. In fact i can't think of anyone currently. Can you?

I guess only if you go through the process will everyone understand about the fitting and also test ride a handmade frame then you will understand what some of the people on this thread are talking about.


I do have a custom frameset. And I have had a bike fit done as well. Trouble is, they are pretty much the same as the first bike I bought which I setup myself. So I have to ask, why bother? I am not suggesting that people cannot benefit from a custom bike or bike fit. And buying a custom bike is a nice process to go through, until you have to decide that colour you want. But does everyone need this? I don't think so.

But then maybe I know nothing about this process and I'm being harsh?

Strith
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Strith » Thu Nov 22, 2012 16:48 pm

If that 50% is true, then it can only mean that the people seeking these custom frames are people with abnormally proportioned bodies to start with. To suggest that 50% of the general cycling population need custom frames is ridiculous.

I have nothing against custom frames and I believe there is a need in some cases, and they’re a nice luxury if you can afford one. But there are more than enough manufacturers with plenty of frame options to cover the vast majority people and their proposed uses.

A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

FWIW, I would get the supersix, cos I know the geo fits me perfectly for a race machine.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby saprkzz » Thu Nov 22, 2012 18:59 pm

A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

+1
Totally.. as cervelo say:

The world’s most demanding athletes ride stock Cervélo frames. Our unique stack and reach-based geometry means our bikes fit 98% of the population.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby LegendLust » Thu Nov 22, 2012 19:46 pm

saprkzz wrote:
A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

+1
Totally.. as cervelo say:

The world’s most demanding athletes ride stock Cervélo frames. Our unique stack and reach-based geometry means our bikes fit 98% of the population.


What does that mean exactly?

Strith
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Strith » Thu Nov 22, 2012 20:23 pm

Basically if you look at their website, they claim their method of sizing (whatever they call it) is better, and there is a more linear relationship between size increment and stack and height increment.

But to be honest that’s all by the by. If you are really concerned about a bike fitting you well, you can go get a fitting then select from the many off the peg bikes already available. Pretty much all manufacturers give all the info you need and there’s plenty to choose from. You will know from a proper fitting session if you truly need a custom frame, which most people won’t.

That’s not to say there’s no other reason to go for a custom frame. I just think the whole fit issue is OTT marketing.

I must say the Legend bikes don’t look very inspiring to me. Most of the frames look like Spesh allez circa 2007.That feather on the last page looks nice tho.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 18:54 pm

saprkzz wrote:even after reading all these posts stating how good these legends and comtat (comtat?? "who the hell are they"....exactly" in the voice of the milk advert kids :lol: ) are..

I am still not convinced I could put my money into one of these over my R5,. The looks for me are 10 times better on stock production bikes, the bling factor, and also the bit that gets me, if the statment you have just made is that they perform so much better... i quote: "the performance was worlds apart from what i had previously experienced" then why dont all racey people race them, including the pro's down to elites etc... they have the money to blow on a custom frame surely?


Buy a bike only on what it looks like? Have you seen a Legend in the flesh?
Some Pro's do ride these bikes, branded as other names, Legend's cost too much to be given away to Pro's to ride, they have to buy them.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sat Nov 24, 2012 13:56 pm

AchillesLeftKnee wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Some riders can take a stock frame and match the correct component set up to gain their position, but not everyone one. You can compromise away from perfect, within the correct technical limits, however there is a "Perfect" fit, one which has you the rider are 100% dialled in, in tune with your bike, with the PERFECT stem length, seat pin extension, saddle set back etc... when you get on this bike, YOUR perfect bike your real cycling experience will have just started.

Quite simply, define perfect.


The position on your bike which is the most bio mechanically efficient in terms of performance & comfort based on your own morphology.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sat Nov 24, 2012 14:05 pm

meesterbond wrote:
greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Yes there is more to this than meets the eye, it is not correct to state that you can achieve the same contact points by changing the accessories on the frame. This assumes there is no issue with the spec' of the accessories being used e.g. 14cm stem on a frame with a 53cm top tube, or a 9cm stem on a frame with a 56cm [or more] top tube, both of these examples are technically not correct, in some combinations we have seen actually dangerous. I.e. Take the relationship between stem & top tube, having a too shorter stem on a larger frame will create a massive under-steer issue for the bike, when breaking at high speed as you approach that hairpin which turns out to be a lot steeper than first thought, you will not be able to steer the bike correctly.

How times have we, seen road bikes with a "sky scraper" of stack headset spacers under the stem, [instead of having the right head tube height] past a certain mm of stack this is a big issue as it overloads the fork steerer column.

If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.


Confused. Why couldn't you have posted something like that when I asked you to on the previous page instead of just saying it's to complicated or you have to write a book! Don't agree with what your saying completely, but this does go some way to explain why some people might be better off with a custom built bike.



Although I think it misses the point rather... my original question assumed that at the very least you were riding a frame that was pretty close to being the right size. If you've got a 140mm stem on 53cm bike you either bought the wrong bike, or you're Ryder Hesjedal. Same as running a 60mm stem on a 60cm frame... you bought the wrong bike.
Both situations can be solved by buying the right size and geometry to begin with and then tailoring it slightly with some small adjustments to stem, crank, saddle, seatpost etc.

From our data over 50% of the customers we see Bio Mechanically require a custom frame


Really? Half of the people you see could not buy an 'off the peg' frame and get it to fit... Or could they not buy a Legend ''off the peg' frame (if such a thing exists) and get it to fit?

I'm sure there are plenty of benefits to custom made frames and I'm sure one day I'll end up buying one, but I still think the whole fit question is overplayed.


Yes over 50% of customers seen will get a real benefit in having a made to measure frame, as I said before made to measure does NOT mean more expensive. If you can buy a frame which is really perfect for you, why would you want to compromise? Yes the other 50% are able to be fitted [do not forget that stock frames come in all sorts of shapes and sizes as well, a good bike fitter will also advise which stock frame will be most suitable for you, if you are of average build and dimensions]

If you think fitting is overplayed you need to get fitted by someone who knows what you are doing. It is really chalk and cheese.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sat Nov 24, 2012 14:11 pm

Strith wrote:If that 50% is true, then it can only mean that the people seeking these custom frames are people with abnormally proportioned bodies to start with. To suggest that 50% of the general cycling population need custom frames is ridiculous.

I have nothing against custom frames and I believe there is a need in some cases, and they’re a nice luxury if you can afford one. But there are more than enough manufacturers with plenty of frame options to cover the vast majority people and their proposed uses.

A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

FWIW, I would get the supersix, cos I know the geo fits me perfectly for a race machine.


It all depends what standards you work to and what the customer is will to except, if you wish to accept a compromise then so be it, we try to work with precision and as close to perfection as possible.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sat Nov 24, 2012 14:17 pm

saprkzz wrote:
A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

+1
Totally.. as cervelo say:

The world’s most demanding athletes ride stock Cervélo frames. Our unique stack and reach-based geometry means our bikes fit 98% of the population.


98% if this is not marketing hype I do not know what is!
As you can imagine I do not agree with this statement, one day soon I will prove it scientifically, then we will see who is blowing hot air.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby gloomyandy » Sat Nov 24, 2012 16:47 pm

Hi sorry to go back a few posts but I'm intrigued by the following quote...

Legend_UK wrote:If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.


In particular I'd like to understand why this is the case and if it is what are the design elements behind making it true.

So assuming that the saddle position is the same relative to the bike bottom bracket and rear wheel (and that the wheel base of the bike is the same) I don't see how the actual position of the seat clamp makes any difference to the weight distribution. So why does it matter if with one stock frame (with say a steeper seat post), the clamp is at the front of the rails, while with another frame with say a slacker seat post the clamp is at the back of the rails, or with the perfect custom seat post angle the clamp is in the centre of the rails? Is there some advantage to having the seat post positioned at some magical point relative to the saddle? If this is the case does this mean that when building a custom frame the frame is designed assuming a particular seat post setback? After all there are seat posts available with lots of different amounts of setback all of which will impact the position of the clamp on the rails (but which will have no impact at all on the relationship of the seatpost and saddle)? Or are you just saying that with a custom frame you can arrange the angle of the seat post such that the clamp (with your choice of setback), is in the centre of the rails, thus allowing a greater range of adjustment?

Andy

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby NapoleonD » Sat Nov 24, 2012 17:04 pm

The thing is, if you start making a slacker seat tube angle, to afford enough wheel clearance you have to elongate the chain stays affecting handling. Hence set back posts. I have a saddle set back of a hefty 12.5cm, my saddle is rammed right back on a set back post.
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby speshsteve » Sat Nov 24, 2012 20:34 pm

wow this thread really has developed into the dark arts of frame fit etc blah blah blah blah

I was out on the MTB today, its a 3 year old spesh fsr and as I rode through the literal storm (after a 2.5 hr drive from London to Wales) I had a blast and honestly my bike is now superseded by 29'ers, carbon etc etc and you know what.....it mattered not a jot....I bloody loved it even though I fell off 3 times and was bloody cold and wet!

So...none of us on here (well there might be a few) are "pro" and a road bike is as about as simple as it should be. Unless you are freak sized, frames are made by all the big manufacturers for 90% of the population. Go and have a bike fit and when you do they never ever say...hmmm the frame size could do with changing....do they ****, unless you have got it real wrong its stems, saddle, crank etc.

So in summary buy whatever you like and just make sure you get a good deal, maximising bang for buck and going for the best deal will determine how you feel about the purchase later.

Right back to that second bottle of red, less ranting and more drinking please all.
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby saprkzz » Sun Nov 25, 2012 08:17 am

Legend_UK wrote:
saprkzz wrote:
A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

+1
Totally.. as cervelo say:

The world’s most demanding athletes ride stock Cervélo frames. Our unique stack and reach-based geometry means our bikes fit 98% of the population.


98% if this is not marketing hype I do not know what is!
As you can imagine I do not agree with this statement, one day soon I will prove it scientifically, then we will see who is blowing hot air.


So what if it is!, until legend start making bikes that look good and attractive then you won't get my money! My bike fits me great, it's comfortable and in my opinion looks good! Next year I will buying another bike probably another cervelo because I love the brand. The only USP legend seem to have is "the perfect fit" that's not enough in my eyes! Hence why I believe the bikes that are in the bike shops are perfectly suited for us (the consumer).

To be honest and all said and done, you don't need to prove anything, because people will buy what the hell they want to buy, the big makes will always have the major chunk of the market share due to the marketing they employee.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 09:07 am

gloomyandy wrote:Hi sorry to go back a few posts but I'm intrigued by the following quote...

Legend_UK wrote:If your saddle is not clamped within 1cm of the centre of the saddle rails then either your position is wrong or your frame is not the correct geometry for you. Having your weight too far forward or back on the bike will radically change the way the bike rides.


In particular I'd like to understand why this is the case and if it is what are the design elements behind making it true.

So assuming that the saddle position is the same relative to the bike bottom bracket and rear wheel (and that the wheel base of the bike is the same) I don't see how the actual position of the seat clamp makes any difference to the weight distribution. So why does it matter if with one stock frame (with say a steeper seat post), the clamp is at the front of the rails, while with another frame with say a slacker seat post the clamp is at the back of the rails, or with the perfect custom seat post angle the clamp is in the centre of the rails? Is there some advantage to having the seat post positioned at some magical point relative to the saddle? If this is the case does this mean that when building a custom frame the frame is designed assuming a particular seat post setback? After all there are seat posts available with lots of different amounts of setback all of which will impact the position of the clamp on the rails (but which will have no impact at all on the relationship of the seatpost and saddle)? Or are you just saying that with a custom frame you can arrange the angle of the seat post such that the clamp (with your choice of setback), is in the centre of the rails, thus allowing a greater range of adjustment?

Andy


What you need to visualise here is the axis of the seat tube in relation to the wheelbase of the bike, this then determines the weight distribution of the rider relative to the front and rear wheels. All of which greatly affects the way the bike rides. Yes when designing a true custom frame you need to take into account not only the riders morphology, also their choice of saddle and seat pin. There are then various issues which you also need to take into account with regards saddle position in relation to the seat pin clamp, again there are certain best practices which should be followed here.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 09:14 am

saprkzz wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:
saprkzz wrote:
A correct fit it is important, but as others have said but, the whole ‘perfect fit’ regarding custom frames is overplayed and is as much a marketing tool as anything else.

+1
Totally.. as cervelo say:

The world’s most demanding athletes ride stock Cervélo frames. Our unique stack and reach-based geometry means our bikes fit 98% of the population.


98% if this is not marketing hype I do not know what is!
As you can imagine I do not agree with this statement, one day soon I will prove it scientifically, then we will see who is blowing hot air.


So what if it is!, until legend start making bikes that look good and attractive then you won't get my money! My bike fits me great, it's comfortable and in my opinion looks good! Next year I will buying another bike probably another cervelo because I love the brand. The only USP legend seem to have is "the perfect fit" that's not enough in my eyes! Hence why I believe the bikes that are in the bike shops are perfectly suited for us (the consumer).

To be honest and all said and done, you don't need to prove anything, because people will buy what the hell they want to buy, the big makes will always have the major chunk of the market share due to the marketing they employee.


Everyone is open to their opinion of what is beautiful and what is ugly, thankfully not everyone wants to buy the same bike, then life would be very boring.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 09:15 am

NapoleonD wrote:The thing is, if you start making a slacker seat tube angle, to afford enough wheel clearance you have to elongate the chain stays affecting handling. Hence set back posts. I have a saddle set back of a hefty 12.5cm, my saddle is rammed right back on a set back post.


Sorry your bike sounds likes it is set up all wrong.


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