Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

General bike chat that does not fit elsewhere

If you had £3000 to spend on a bike which option would you prefer?

Cervelo R5
34
41%
Cannondale Supersix
19
23%
Custom Frame
15
18%
None of the above - You can do better than the above!
13
16%
None of the above - You are wasting your money!
2
2%
 
Total votes: 83

letap73
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby letap73 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 22:21 pm

greasedscotsman wrote:
letap73 wrote:Ok I was refering to my own communication with the legend representative and specifically with reference to bike brands such as Cervelo, Cannondale etc. He hasn't named any brand in the above description and all he seems to have done is express an opinion. For belittling other brands on this thread I would suggest a closer inspection of clincher 3s posts.


Fair enough. But I read his earlier post which my quotes were from as "we are fantastic and everyone else is rubbish". Doesn't really need to name any other specific brands. I'm sure they are very nice bikes, but nothing anyone has posted on this thread would encourage me to look into buying one.


TBH I cannot see where legend UK has stated or even opined "we are fantastic and everyone else is rubbish" in this thread, although others sadly have.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Thu Nov 15, 2012 22:29 pm

letap73 wrote:TBH I cannot see where legend UK has stated or even opined "we are fantastic and everyone else is rubbish" in this thread, although others sadly have.


I'm not suggesting that they Legend UK said exactly that, I was summarising how it appears to me, but fair enough if others see it differently.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Fri Nov 16, 2012 06:03 am

NapoleonD wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Life is too short to only make do or have a bike to just serve you, you want wake up in the morning yearning to get out on a bike feels something really special, like nothing you have ever ridden, when you are just cruising along it feels smooth and relaxed, when you press on the pedals it just comes to life as if you have a rocket pack on your back. Climbing you gain at least one sprocket compared to another bike, you feel like you are another rider. Sure there are lots of great average bikes out there, but many really great ones.

Keep an open mind and try for yourself.


:shock: do you write the product descriptions for rapha?

I feel smooth and relaxed but can give some welly on my Cervelo. I felt like that with my alloy and carbon Colnagos. If its the case then why do the top GC riders not ride rebadged custom Legends? (Marginal gains etc)

It's one think keeping an open mind, it's another to drop several k on a company that is not tried and tested by your peers...

I was genuinely interested in the product as I'm currently saving up for my 40th birthday present to myself. The waffle coming out of the 'legend camp' has put me off immensely...


No, do not work for Rapha! But I do come from a marketing background, but not as a copy writer! This was not meant to be an advert! Was just expressing my own feelings as an owner of a Legend.

This thread has been hijacked by people who want to express their own personal likes and dislikes, if you read my posts there is nothing to this end. It was started by someone [not me!] who seems to have an interest in learning more about made to measure bikes. I do get frustrated at the level of miss-information that is flying around. The real facts are being lost in all this bickering.

Most riders in the UK will not know Legend, when I went to live in Italy I too did not know them from Adam [or should that be Colnago] in fact I had no idea what the cycle industry was all about, I was a consumer, I saw riders in the TFD and wanted to buy the bike my heroes rode. This is the essence of how the cycle industry has worked since the very first bike race. Racing myself at the time, I started to learn more about the bigger picture of bike biz. I will not bore you with the whole story but over the past 15 years I have worked in the industry I have seen it from inside and from out. So please understand what I may write about are facts and not just marketing hot air that I see being blown all around us.

Legend is a new brand, but it is a very old company, Marco has built bikes for many other brands & professional riders/teams in the past, in fact for over 38 years. I have seen 90% of the frame builders that are left in Italy and I can assure you he is the very best I have seen.

If you have not seen it check out this month’s Rouleur, they did a great feature on him.

He has been forced to start his own brand because most of the teams/brands with whom he worked and consulted for have moved all their production to the Far East. Today he is one of a very small group of bike brands who actually build their own product. I would argue that there is a lot less risk buying a bike which you can actually see who makes it, where it is made and can have it designed 100% for you.

The real scandal :shock: that no one is talking about is how all the Italian brands followed the Americans to move their production to Asia. Driven by the economics of the modern bike biz, having to run after the big American brands who were pumping more and more money into team sponsorship [very low cost price + same high selling price = more profit] who wins here? I argue not the consumer for sure! You end up paying a good percentage of your purchase price to pay for a pro team that is living a new dream [let’s not talk about dugs here pls] then all the marketing required to sell the product, what is actually left invest in the actual product? [Well I can assure you it is very very low] Is that not surely more of a risk?

Marco has invested his heart soul into his products [not to mention his engineering genius] and a lot more than a small percentage of its value. You can actually come and see him and his factory [we will be organising the first public trip shortly, if anyone wants to know more pls message me] you can also test ride many of the bikes he makes. There is now also a growing network of dealers who sell his products in the UK, where you can go and see the products and again test ride them.

I have not heard from one customer who said you know I am very disappointed with the way this bike rides, the opposite, customers are left amazed, how can a bike ride so well, it is true, there really is a huge difference. I have lots of written feedback, but do not take my word for it, see for yourself. Everyone should be respected for the purchases and bikes they ride, we all make them based on what we know, as they say knowledge is king, at present not everyone really knows about Legend.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Fri Nov 16, 2012 06:16 am

southdownswolf wrote:Legend Uk would you be willing to build a custom bike under no obligation to buy if people were not convinced that it was no better than an off the peg bike?


I am sorry the cost of the frames is too expensive to do this, what would we do with all the frames when you get all the jokers who do this just for fun?

What I would be prepared to do is to open this offer up to a few readers of this forum, who can express a real interest to buy a custom made Legend, who are prepared to actually tell everyone the truth of the whole experience.

Lets say max of 3 people. For which I would also give them the VIP treatment, professional bike fit [with the worlds top bike fitter] and a free trip to the factory in Italy to see their frame being made etc... oh and some great food & wine!

Then is for any REAL technical reason they are not happy with their frame I would offer this money back guarantee.

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Joeblack
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Joeblack » Fri Nov 16, 2012 07:18 am

Legend_UK wrote:
southdownswolf wrote:Legend Uk would you be willing to build a custom bike under no obligation to buy if people were not convinced that it was no better than an off the peg bike?


I am sorry the cost of the frames is too expensive to do this, what would we do with all the frames when you get all the jokers who do this just for fun?

What I would be prepared to do is to open this offer up to a few readers of this forum, who can express a real interest to buy a custom made Legend, who are prepared to actually tell everyone the truth of the whole experience.

Lets say max of 3 people. For which I would also give them the VIP treatment, professional bike fit [with the worlds top bike fitter] and a free trip to the factory in Italy to see their frame being made etc... oh and some great food & wine!

Then is for any REAL technical reason they are not happy with their frame I would offer this money back guarantee.


Well you can't say fairer than that,

If I hadn't just spent out on a new bike I'd take you up on this.

Good luck with the brand though. And I look forward to someone coming forward after taking this offer.
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby NapoleonD » Fri Nov 16, 2012 07:19 am

I'd be up for that had I not just bought an SR group set and a complete new winter bike :(
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby meesterbond » Fri Nov 16, 2012 09:31 am

A couple of thoughts...

I'm still not convinced on the bio-mechanical advantages of a custom fit bike. From a fit perspective, there are surely only three points of contact, so provided you can replicate the distances and angles of that triangle, the bike will fit. The post back on page one or two which seemed to imply that 50% of the population needed a custom frame from a fit perspective, seems at odds with this. Provided you start with something close, you can get to the exact measurement through stem and saddle adjustments. What am I missing here?

Secondly, I know that by buying a Cervelo I'm subsidising their sponsorship of Garmin and thus, in some small way, the sport I love. Due to the messed up way the sport is run, it needs business sponsorship to continue so I have no problem with that. Without the lives of Sky, Quickstep Flooring, Cervelo etc etc, there would be no professional bike racing.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Fri Nov 16, 2012 09:32 am

Legend_UK wrote:Lets say max of 3 people. For which I would also give them the VIP treatment, professional bike fit [with the worlds top bike fitter] and a free trip to the factory in Italy to see their frame being made etc... oh and some great food & wine!

Then is for any REAL technical reason they are not happy with their frame I would offer this money back guarantee.


Shouldn't you be offering this to all of your customers. OK, maybe not the VIP stuff, but if someone has a genuine technical reason why they are not happy, they should get their cash back?

But you work for Legend, right? Not sure you should be posting on this thread if you do. All of your posts read like an advert, even if you are trying to post from the point of view of an owner of one of your bikes. This is against forum rules, isn't it?

How about you tell us why we should buy a custom bike without mentioning Legend?

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby southdownswolf » Fri Nov 16, 2012 09:43 am

Legend_UK wrote:
southdownswolf wrote:Legend Uk would you be willing to build a custom bike under no obligation to buy if people were not convinced that it was no better than an off the peg bike?


I am sorry the cost of the frames is too expensive to do this, what would we do with all the frames when you get all the jokers who do this just for fun?

What I would be prepared to do is to open this offer up to a few readers of this forum, who can express a real interest to buy a custom made Legend, who are prepared to actually tell everyone the truth of the whole experience.

Lets say max of 3 people. For which I would also give them the VIP treatment, professional bike fit [with the worlds top bike fitter] and a free trip to the factory in Italy to see their frame being made etc... oh and some great food & wine!

Then is for any REAL technical reason they are not happy with their frame I would offer this money back guarantee.


That's very reasonable.

Next Question...

Are you able to convince my wife that the offer is too good to refuse? :D

The idea of having a completely custom bike (or two) made to my spec would really appeal and if I were to have the money then I would love to take you up on the offer. It would always be a nagging doubt though that I have potentialy paid for something that I did not need. If I tried out lots of different bikes and fell in love with one that was "off the shelf", that frame could , by chance, be the exact fit for me. :?
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Fri Nov 16, 2012 09:53 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:Lets say max of 3 people. For which I would also give them the VIP treatment, professional bike fit [with the worlds top bike fitter] and a free trip to the factory in Italy to see their frame being made etc... oh and some great food & wine!

Then is for any REAL technical reason they are not happy with their frame I would offer this money back guarantee.


Shouldn't you be offering this to all of your customers. OK, maybe not the VIP stuff, but if someone has a genuine technical reason why they are not happy, they should get their cash back?

But you work for Legend, right? Not sure you should be posting on this thread if you do. All of your posts read like an advert, even if you are trying to post from the point of view of an owner of one of your bikes. This is against forum rules, isn't it?

How about you tell us why we should buy a custom bike without mentioning Legend?


It is quite clear that I work with Legend, look at my Forum name? I was asked to reply to this thread by the person who started it. All I am writing are the facts and the truth, you can read them as you wish, or not.

If there is a technical issue, as with any manufacturers product, this is covered by warranty etc.. but I do not think it is reasonable to let people "try" a custom made frame/bike, built for them and then to have them just turn around and say I do not like it I want my money back, this would open us to the liability of dealing with every nutter out there.

Custom bikes/frames has more to do with Bio Mechanics than it does about any brand, which to explain all about would require I wrote a book. If you have any specific questions please ask, or better still actually come for a bike fitting and understand further the whole processes, as your needs will quite likely be very different to the next rider.

I would like to point out an interesting technical fact, which I hope is not seen as an advert! since I have sold the HT series of Carbon [since 2008] frame we have not had even ONE frame failure, including riders who have had the misfortune to have been knocked off or had an accident, not one broken tube or joint.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Fri Nov 16, 2012 09:57 am

southdownswolf wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:
southdownswolf wrote:Legend Uk would you be willing to build a custom bike under no obligation to buy if people were not convinced that it was no better than an off the peg bike?


I am sorry the cost of the frames is too expensive to do this, what would we do with all the frames when you get all the jokers who do this just for fun?

What I would be prepared to do is to open this offer up to a few readers of this forum, who can express a real interest to buy a custom made Legend, who are prepared to actually tell everyone the truth of the whole experience.

Lets say max of 3 people. For which I would also give them the VIP treatment, professional bike fit [with the worlds top bike fitter] and a free trip to the factory in Italy to see their frame being made etc... oh and some great food & wine!

Then is for any REAL technical reason they are not happy with their frame I would offer this money back guarantee.


That's very reasonable.

Next Question...

Are you able to convince my wife that the offer is too good to refuse? :D

The idea of having a completely custom bike (or two) made to my spec would really appeal and if I were to have the money then I would love to take you up on the offer. It would always be a nagging doubt though that I have potentialy paid for something that I did not need. If I tried out lots of different bikes and fell in love with one that was "off the shelf", that frame could , by chance, be the exact fit for me. :?


Please note:
- Buying a custom made frame does NOT have to cost any more than buying a stock frame

- You will know after having a bike fitting consultation if you would gain a benefit from a made to measure frame/bike, if a stock size frame would work well for you, then we would tell you this quite clearly.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:34 am

Legend_UK wrote:It is quite clear that I work with Legend, look at my Forum name? I was asked to reply to this thread by the person who started it. All I am writing are the facts and the truth, you can read them as you wish, or not.


I dunno, your previous posts still read like adverts to me. You could have stuck to telling us why we should buy a custom bike rather than just trying to sell your brand.

Legend_UK wrote:If there is a technical issue, as with any manufacturers product, this is covered by warranty etc.. but I do not think it is reasonable to let people "try" a custom made frame/bike, built for them and then to have them just turn around and say I do not like it I want my money back, this would open us to the liability of dealing with every nutter out there.


Now I'm not sure what your offer is then. Are you saying buy a bike from us, we'll take you out to dinner, but then you have to write on this forum how amazing we are? This seems very similar to what Neil Pryde were doing a while back.

Legend_UK wrote:Custom bikes/frames has more to do with Bio Mechanics than it does about any brand, which to explain all about would require I wrote a book. If you have any specific questions please ask, or better still actually come for a bike fitting and understand further the whole processes, as your needs will quite likely be very different to the next rider.


Great, buy a custom bike from us but I can't tell you why because it's to complicated!

Legend_UK wrote:I would like to point out an interesting technical fact, which I hope is not seen as an advert! since I have sold the HT series of Carbon [since 2008] frame we have not had even ONE frame failure, including riders who have had the misfortune to have been knocked off or had an accident, not one broken tube or joint.


Is that because they are really heavy and overbuilt? OK, I'm joking there. :D

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:08 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:It is quite clear that I work with Legend, look at my Forum name? I was asked to reply to this thread by the person who started it. All I am writing are the facts and the truth, you can read them as you wish, or not.


I dunno, your previous posts still read like adverts to me. You could have stuck to telling us why we should buy a custom bike rather than just trying to sell your brand.

Well I am not going to talk about buying a custom bike in relation to another brand which I am not qualified to talk about am I ? plus the fact a Legend made to measure frame is made to Legend's standards, which is not the same as another builder. The person who made this post asked me direction questions in relation to Legend, not another brand. If you do not like what you read then I suggest you read something else.

Legend_UK wrote:If there is a technical issue, as with any manufacturers product, this is covered by warranty etc.. but I do not think it is reasonable to let people "try" a custom made frame/bike, built for them and then to have them just turn around and say I do not like it I want my money back, this would open us to the liability of dealing with every nutter out there.


Now I'm not sure what your offer is then. Are you saying buy a bike from us, we'll take you out to dinner, but then you have to write on this forum how amazing we are? This seems very similar to what Neil Pryde were doing a while back.

It is obvious you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, as I said before Legend is not for everyone.

Legend_UK wrote:Custom bikes/frames has more to do with Bio Mechanics than it does about any brand, which to explain all about would require I wrote a book. If you have any specific questions please ask, or better still actually come for a bike fitting and understand further the whole processes, as your needs will quite likely be very different to the next rider.


Great, buy a custom bike from us but I can't tell you why because it's to complicated!

That is NOT what I wrote. It is not within the scope of a forum to reply to a general open ended question like this.

Legend_UK wrote:I would like to point out an interesting technical fact, which I hope is not seen as an advert! since I have sold the HT series of Carbon [since 2008] frame we have not had even ONE frame failure, including riders who have had the misfortune to have been knocked off or had an accident, not one broken tube or joint.


Is that because they are really heavy and overbuilt? OK, I'm joking there. :D

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:33 am

Legend_UK wrote:Well I am not going to talk about buying a custom bike in relation to another brand which I am not qualified to talk about am I ? plus the fact a Legend made to measure frame is made to Legend's standards, which is not the same as another builder. The person who made this post asked me direction questions in relation to Legend, not another brand. If you do not like what you read then I suggest you read something else.


Why not? Isn't the question Cervelo v Cannondale v Custom Frame? OK the OP first post mentions Legend, but I still don't see why you or anyone else can explain to me why I should buy a custom bike.

Legend_UK wrote:It is obvious you are just trying to argue for the sake of arguing, as I said before Legend is not for everyone.


Am I? Becuase I think your offer is really an advert and shouldn't be on the forum?

Legend_UK wrote:That is NOT what I wrote. It is not within the scope of a forum to reply to a general open ended question like this.


Yes, I know it's not what you wrote. But it doesn't really help if you can't explain why a custom bike is so good.
Last edited by greasedscotsman on Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby LegendLust » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:36 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:It is quite clear that I work with Legend, look at my Forum name? I was asked to reply to this thread by the person who started it. All I am writing are the facts and the truth, you can read them as you wish, or not.


I dunno, your previous posts still read like adverts to me. You could have stuck to telling us why we should buy a custom bike rather than just trying to sell your brand.

Legend_UK wrote:If there is a technical issue, as with any manufacturers product, this is covered by warranty etc.. but I do not think it is reasonable to let people "try" a custom made frame/bike, built for them and then to have them just turn around and say I do not like it I want my money back, this would open us to the liability of dealing with every nutter out there.


Now I'm not sure what your offer is then. Are you saying buy a bike from us, we'll take you out to dinner, but then you have to write on this forum how amazing we are? This seems very similar to what Neil Pryde were doing a while back.

Legend_UK wrote:Custom bikes/frames has more to do with Bio Mechanics than it does about any brand, which to explain all about would require I wrote a book. If you have any specific questions please ask, or better still actually come for a bike fitting and understand further the whole processes, as your needs will quite likely be very different to the next rider.


Great, buy a custom bike from us but I can't tell you why because it's to complicated!

Legend_UK wrote:I would like to point out an interesting technical fact, which I hope is not seen as an advert! since I have sold the HT series of Carbon [since 2008] frame we have not had even ONE frame failure, including riders who have had the misfortune to have been knocked off or had an accident, not one broken tube or joint.


Is that because they are really heavy and overbuilt? OK, I'm joking there. :D


I know you're joking but it appears you're wrong :wink: http://legend-bikes.com/News/tabid/104/ ... fault.aspx

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:48 am

LegendLust wrote:I know you're joking but it appears you're wrong :wink: http://legend-bikes.com/News/tabid/104/ ... fault.aspx


Bottle cage looks terrible!

Image

http://legend-bikes.com/News/tabid/104/ ... fault.aspx

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Mccaria » Sat Nov 17, 2012 14:58 pm

Can't believe I missed this thread ! Great value.

One minor point for Letap 73, I am not sure you can use Ryder's victory in the Giro as proof of Far East production quality. Pretty certain that he has ridden most of the year on the R5ca which is made in the US.

I am happy to offer up to be a guinea pig in the Legend/Cervelo or made to measure/stock frame face off. I have a number of good quality stock carbon frames including a R5 VWD. I have had a couple of bike fittings and set up my stock frames accordingly, so I think this is a good representation of what a stock frame can offer.

I have never had a made to measure carbon frame made for me, but have been talking to Legend about a custom build, most probably the 7.5. Happy to do some back to back testing with identical groupsets and wheels and report back. Really have no axe to grind but am intrigued to see how made to measure compares to top end stock frames.

So I am in !

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Sir Velo » Sat Nov 17, 2012 17:47 pm

I must declare that I have not read every post on this thread but there does seem to be a bit too much of putting a particular brand down.

Just because I haven't heard of a make I would not rule it out or suggest it may not be an excellent choice. Probably would do some research and then if the feed back is positive (in my eyes) then take a closer look. I accept that as the Legend is a custom frame then it is not practical for the company to make me one just to test to see if I like it. But equally how many on the forum go to their LBS and get a bike frame (non custom) built up or even an off the shelf bike to try for a few weeks to see if we like it. In fact a lot of shops only allow a spin on a turbo.

So even with the well known brands most people just go on what they look, feel like in the shop. This makes the offer to go to the Legend factory and see them being made, and I suspect there will be a few demo bikes to take for a spin (obviously not custom made) a very goo offer and at least as good as going down to the LBS or buying on the Internet.

The draw back I see with any bespoke bike frame is that you have to trust that they really do get the right frame for you as you have to commit before you see/try the bike. The other drawback, as I see it is that they can be difficult to sell secondhand, as it is your dimensions. But both of these things are questions that only the buyer can answer for themselves.

Now back to the original question I am not sure there is simply answer. They can all be the right choice for you and any amount of voting on this post will I feel be a poor proxy for riding a few different bikes and if you are considering custom (I.e. happy to trust their fitting system and accept it might be harder to sell on) then why not take up the offer of Legend or go down to the Enigma (or other factories) and see what is being produced and look at/try some demo bikes. Get to ride as many as possible you may feel that the best is not currently on you list!

I have ridden Cannondale, Cervelo, Spesh S-Works, Parlee, BMC, Colnago, Trek and (still own 5 on that list) but what suits me may not be best for you. In fact on my club ride this morning I took out the oldest of my bikes and it was so nice to ride and I didn't feel any loss in speed compared to the newest (and as the marketing people will try and convince you the frame with the highest stiffness, best construction, etc). But then again tomorrow's Hill Climb contest will likely see a different bike.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby compositepro » Sun Nov 18, 2012 17:45 pm

A few answers

most carbon bikes are laid up by hand ie the plies are placed into the mould there are automated processes being used here in the UK for manufacturing frames and also time manufacture their tubes by braiding them to shape as a preform

someone mentioned canyon ? in a negative low quality way? iirc it tests at EHBE as one of the morst survivable carbon frames and they pass Din+ which is no mean feat in itself

There are custom carbon builders in the UK

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby LegendLust » Sun Nov 18, 2012 18:33 pm

compositepro wrote:A few answers

most carbon bikes are laid up by hand ie the plies are placed into the mould there are automated processes being used here in the UK for manufacturing frames and also time manufacture their tubes by braiding them to shape as a preform

someone mentioned canyon ? in a negative low quality way? iirc it tests at EHBE as one of the morst survivable carbon frames and they pass Din+ which is no mean feat in itself

There are custom carbon builders in the UK


Interesting. Who are they?


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