Compulsory cycling lessons for learner drivers.

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Sirius631
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Compulsory cycling lessons for learner drivers.

Postby Sirius631 » Fri Aug 19, 2011 09:14 am

This is not my e-petition, but I think this is well worth getting behind.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12258
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Mouth
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Postby Mouth » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:46 am

Hmm, much as I agree with the sentiment, shouldn't we also be petitioning for compulsory lessons for cyclists?

I am a firm believer that I am unable to criticise another until my own house is in order.
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volvicspar
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Postby volvicspar » Sat Aug 20, 2011 13:13 pm

What about the other however many millions drivers there are already on the roads ? No point just teaching one tiny group of drivers, who will forget everything on passing their test anyway.

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Sirius631
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Postby Sirius631 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 15:33 pm

Mouth wrote:Hmm, much as I agree with the sentiment, shouldn't we also be petitioning for compulsory lessons for cyclists?

I am a firm believer that I am unable to criticise another until my own house is in order.


The CTT are already campaigning to get cycling on the school ciriculum. If every school kid could get their Bikeability Level 3 then that would be a good start to getting everyone to have road experience before they get behind the wheel of a car.
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Postby Mouth » Mon Aug 22, 2011 19:53 pm

Sirius631 wrote:
Mouth wrote:Hmm, much as I agree with the sentiment, shouldn't we also be petitioning for compulsory lessons for cyclists?

I am a firm believer that I am unable to criticise another until my own house is in order.


The CTT are already campaigning to get cycling on the school ciriculum. If every school kid could get their Bikeability Level 3 then that would be a good start to getting everyone to have road experience before they get behind the wheel of a car.


Would like to see something like this put together. Will be investing in some training for my son (10 at the moment) before he gets to Secondary school. Can't exactly force him to apply anything he learns but he will at least have the option to do so.
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Postby Slow Downcp » Mon Aug 22, 2011 20:59 pm

Isn't it better to teach our kids ourselves? I'd rather my kids have a common sense real world ability than a textbook/rospa/yellow bib knowledge.

Trying to force people into riding a bike to learn how to drive a car is a non-starter. What next, we all have to ride a horse to understand the dangers?
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Postby Mouth » Mon Aug 22, 2011 22:10 pm

Slow Downcp wrote:Isn't it better to teach our kids ourselves? I'd rather my kids have a common sense real world ability than a textbook/rospa/yellow bib knowledge.

Trying to force people into riding a bike to learn how to drive a car is a non-starter. What next, we all have to ride a horse to understand the dangers?


you make a good argument at all points. the message i'm trying to send is that if we get 'x'0000 kids into a cycle scheme, maybe we can force the hand of the government to look at making it compulsory, or at least more readily available. have already started training my lad myself, as well as 'reminding' other family members of good practice.
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Postby Sirius631 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:17 am

Slow Downcp wrote:Isn't it better to teach our kids ourselves? I'd rather my kids have a common sense real world ability than a textbook/rospa/yellow bib knowledge.


Having done the Bikeability Instructors course myself, and having found myself having to get my head around counter-intuitive concepts, I would say that it isn't better to teach your own kids, unless you have a thorough knowledge of the National Cycle Training Standards and practice correct defensive riding yourself.

From what I can tell, over 90% of the adult cycling population in this country do not know their rights and the practices regarding correct road positioning when approaching a hazard. I include experienced riders in that statement too.

Trying to force people into riding a bike to learn how to drive a car is a non-starter. What next, we all have to ride a horse to understand the dangers?


As to your doubts about the practicality of this requirement, you are probably right, but I would like to see it on the agenda, at least. Then the politicians could discuss it and find something that is workable, like putting cycling on the school time table.
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Postby shouldbeinbed » Sat Sep 24, 2011 01:21 am

What comes off the timetable to put cycling on there?

Assumedly some part of PE which is already being squeezed to the margins as schools live or die by a very narrow band of core subjects - current PE standard fare is comparitively minimal cost outlay in terms of footballs, hockey sticks etc and within the remit and expertise of the staff member(s) already on salary to provide.

if you make Bikeability compulsory you are effectively expecting the (skint) government or Local Authorities ( not just skint but closing good services, losing millions of pounds to academy conversions and haemorraging educational staff alarmingly) or (skint) schools to have to regularly hire bikes and safety & training equipment or purchase enough of all of these outright to guarantee 100% inclusion at every school; as you cannot simply assume every child owns a bike and if they do, one that is fit for purpose and that they'll remember/want/be allowed by parents to bring it.

Then schools would need to go to the expense of secure bike storage on site for the purchased kit and owners rides coming in, Insurance premiums (including injury & liability) would go up Then there is the issue of either training up at least 2 staff members per school, (PE teachers are busy all day every day too and invariably have a second string to their bow timetabled in - they can also go sick, get pregnant, find a new job, have courses to attend) or buying in external coaches week in week out.

You're also letting those kids that do have their own bikes to use, come in and go home at the busiest and most dangerous times of the school day before they're qualified to do so. How are you as the Head going to justify to a very angry Mr & Mrs Smith that it really isn't your fault Mrs Jones knocked little Timmy off his bike after you'd been forced to make him to come in on it in the first place and that the half a million pounds damages they want isn't going to happen no matter how many newspapers and MP's they talk to (got that T shirt!)
There is a difference between this kind of compulsion for lesson purposes and kids choosing of their own volition to ride to school. You'd tell them till your teeth fell out not to ride to and from school but they'd still do it and you'd be powerless to police them Even clearly off premises, the negatives of any incident would stick to school like you know what to a shovel.

I'm recently out of school governance - the writing on the wall as the cuts kick in is being written in blood, there isn't the money, particularly in certain areas to do what is at best going to be seen as an expensive enrichment activity and at worst a luxurious imposition into an already hectic timetable and sorely stretched budget.

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Postby cooldad » Sat Sep 24, 2011 19:31 pm

In other words, a stupid idea.
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Postby Mike Healey » Sat Sep 24, 2011 20:05 pm

Slow Downcp wrote:Isn't it better to teach our kids ourselves? I'd rather my kids have a common sense real world ability than a textbook/rospa/yellow bib knowledge.

Trying to force people into riding a bike to learn how to drive a car is a non-starter. What next, we all have to ride a horse to understand the dangers?


You're assuming that everyone :roll: can teach their kids how to ride safely on the road. Over the years, I've had to disabuse a fair number of parents as to how to do this.

As for Bikeability, what makes you think that it's a textbook/rospa/yellow bib knowledge? The course was prompted by the CTC's desire to update the old (and inadequate) playground taught-and-tested Cycling Proficiency course. Much of it was based on the City of York's programme which had been used for many years in nearly every school in the city. It was tested in the real world of reduced accident figures for York's children.

Reading this and other cycling forums, it's obvious that parental commonsense can include: jumping red lights; riding close to the side of the road, riding in primary position most of the timeriding on the pavement where traffic is heavy, wrong way up one-way streets, etc.
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Postby Mouth » Sun Sep 25, 2011 00:39 am

Mike Healey wrote:
You're assuming that everyone :roll: can teach their kids how to ride safely on the road. Over the years, I've had to disabuse a fair number of parents as to how to do this.

As for Bikeability, what makes you think that it's a textbook/rospa/yellow bib knowledge? The course was prompted by the CTC's desire to update the old (and inadequate) playground taught-and-tested Cycling Proficiency course. Much of it was based on the City of York's programme which had been used for many years in nearly every school in the city. It was tested in the real world of reduced accident figures for York's children.

Reading this and other cycling forums, it's obvious that parental commonsense can include: jumping red lights; riding close to the side of the road, riding in primary position most of the timeriding on the pavement where traffic is heavy, wrong way up one-way streets, etc.


+1 to all of the above here. I neither have the formal knowledge, nor the patience or ability to teach anything to anyone. Often opening a can of beans is a challenge. As for adults doing silly things on bikes, I see it literally every day when at work.

When I take my little 'un out on his bike I make sure to talk to him about what this or that read marking or sign means and how to position himself at a junction etc but it is in no way a complete knowledge of everything he needs to know. The most important thing I've taught him so far is that of he's not sure of something, get off and walk.
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Postby shouldbeinbed » Sun Sep 25, 2011 16:55 pm

cooldad wrote:In other words, a stupid idea.


:lol: did I go on a bit? (not like me)

I think its a great idea in theory but just trying to put over that a specific groups interests often don't see the other side of the issue and - particularly around kids - the monumentally risk averse culture that has grown up

Especially in light of parents who are invariably pushy/overprotective/happy to abdicate all responsibility for their own kids upbringing to schools and then scream blue murder when even the slightest thing crops up.

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Postby Plod » Sat Oct 29, 2011 21:12 pm

If everyone teaches their own child to ride then either they will learn to ride safely or they'll get scared or killed. Either way, who ever is left will be a safe cyclist.

The idea of putting cycling on the school curriculum is well-meaning but not always practical. Parents should spend more time doing things with their children. It's no good expecting teachers to be surrogate mums and dads.

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Postby Herbsman » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:49 am

only in a cycling utopia. in the real world, no fu*king chance


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