Pacing A timetrial

Talk about your races - Time Trials, Road Races or Cyclocross.
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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Fri Mar 06, 2009 02:10 am

dennisn wrote:Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward
If most amateur racers are giving it hell out of the blocks, then their pacing will be sub-optimal, no matter the distance they have to ride.

Pacing is a vital skill for fast TT riding, for everything from an individual pursuit as short as 2km (e.g. for masters age riders) right up to 180km Ironman bike legs.

As for the ratio of 10-mile TT power to 25-mile TT power (FTP), that varies for each individual.

Myself, I generally average about 104% of FTP in a 10-mile TT. Some can do more, others less. Not all that much more though.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Fri Mar 06, 2009 02:28 am

The 3 Ps of fast TT racing:

- Power to the pedals (training to become more powerful)
- Piercing the wind (becoming as aerodynamic as possible + fast tyres)
- Pacing the course well

To go the fastest you can go, you need all three, otherwise you are sub-optimal speed wise.

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Jeff Jones
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Postby Jeff Jones » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:04 am

My best 10 power is ~105% of my best 25 power (under an hour, but probably close to FTP).

In my admittedly short experience, I've found it's easy to average 110% of FTP for five minutes but boy do you pay for it in terms of power loss later on.

What bakes your noodle is that it will hurt more starting flat out and hanging on than starting steady and ramping up. But you will go slower. We like to equate pain with good performance but our bodies don't work like that.
Jeff Jones

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dennisn
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Postby dennisn » Fri Mar 06, 2009 14:01 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
dennisn wrote:Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward
If most amateur racers are giving it hell out of the blocks, then their pacing will be sub-optimal, no matter the distance they have to ride.

Pacing is a vital skill for fast TT riding, .......




I agree with you 100% about pacing. Just an observation of mine that most AMATEUR
riders tend to give it, pretty much, all they have and just try to "hang on for the finish" in the shorter events. Granted pacing would help and I'm sure in the top amateur and pro ranks this is a very important aspect of the ride but for the average weekend warrior /
club racer I have a feeling that, in these shorter TT's, most thoughts of pacing are somewhat pushed aside by the pretty much all out effort that most people feel they need to put in in order to post a good time.I agree that this type of thinking is wrong(to a point)
but it is very hard to put all other thoughts behind you and concentrate on a monitor or two. The effort of it all seems to send peoples minds into almost chaos and the dominate
thought is "go harder, go harder". I can remember having all kinds of thoughts go through
my head in these "shorter" TT's. i.e. if my monitor said 105%, and I was still capable of reading it through the pain, my brain would still be telling me "ignore that thing, go for 110%, you've got to go faster or suffer the disgrace of having your minute man pass you". And when your minute man is your best friend and vicious rival and somehow always seems to sign up for a start spot one minute behind you, well, all thoughts of pacing go right out the door. Kill yourself, kill yourself, don't even let him get close(oh the disgrace of it all if you get caught).

Dennis Noward

celbianchi
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Postby celbianchi » Fri Mar 06, 2009 15:05 pm

dennisn wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
dennisn wrote:Can't really speak for power meter training / racing but as far as 10 miles TT's
go I would venture the opinion that most amateur racers "give it hell" right out of the box,
so to speak, and just try to hold on. Seems to me that this is the way it's done on the 10
mile or less races. Above 10 you start to have to really get into pacing or you will "cook"
yourself out there. At least that's my opinion.

Dennis Noward
If most amateur racers are giving it hell out of the blocks, then their pacing will be sub-optimal, no matter the distance they have to ride.

Pacing is a vital skill for fast TT riding, .......




I agree with you 100% about pacing. Just an observation of mine that most AMATEUR
riders tend to give it, pretty much, all they have and just try to "hang on for the finish" in the shorter events. Granted pacing would help and I'm sure in the top amateur and pro ranks this is a very important aspect of the ride but for the average weekend warrior /
club racer I have a feeling that, in these shorter TT's, most thoughts of pacing are somewhat pushed aside by the pretty much all out effort that most people feel they need to put in in order to post a good time.I agree that this type of thinking is wrong(to a point)
but it is very hard to put all other thoughts behind you and concentrate on a monitor or two. The effort of it all seems to send peoples minds into almost chaos and the dominate
thought is "go harder, go harder". I can remember having all kinds of thoughts go through
my head in these "shorter" TT's. i.e. if my monitor said 105%, and I was still capable of reading it through the pain, my brain would still be telling me "ignore that thing, go for 110%, you've got to go faster or suffer the disgrace of having your minute man pass you". And when your minute man is your best friend and vicious rival and somehow always seems to sign up for a start spot one minute behind you, well, all thoughts of pacing go right out the door. Kill yourself, kill yourself, don't even let him get close(oh the disgrace of it all if you get caught).

Dennis Noward


good post Dennis. As a reasonably experienced roadie, but with only a handful of 10's to my name, my first thought is ALWAYS "mustn't let the minute man catch me". I think your summation is accurate for a lot of inexperienced testers.

I have a hilly 32 tomorrow, I will use my HRM but I am definatley going to start out easier. Hell, last season I did 2 long mountain TT's (one 40 miles. one 47 miles) and I still gave it big licks from the start and hang on. I do ok (for a roadman) and even in club 10's always bagged a top 10 finish using this method.

I treat them like i do hill climbs, just give it some and hope for the best. I hope to experiment a lot this season given I'll do quite a few and learn the art of proper pacing!

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DaveyL
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Postby DaveyL » Wed Mar 11, 2009 20:30 pm

Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx

celbianchi
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Postby celbianchi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:06 am

DaveyL wrote:Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx



Interesting article. Good to see that even the pro's with all the coaching and science back up still have to do a lot of trial and error to find what works.
I guess that only on a pan flat course could you apply an FTP x % over a set distance to maximise your pacing.

In the hilly 32 I did on Saturday the first 500 yards or so were up hill into a headwind, Depite my thoughts being on starting moderatley, I was quickly up to the 90% of MHR.
I think I probably went too hard on the first 11 mile lap as I suffered towards the end.
Did enough to finish 6th though in 1'31'33, though some 7 mins down on the winner. Was pleased enough for first ride on the TT bike.

Now to drum into my head that a moderate start = faster overall. I will experiment in club midweek 10's to crack the pacing strategy.

Thanks to all who have chipped into this thread, much food for thought

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Jeff Jones
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Postby Jeff Jones » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:18 am

celbianchi wrote:
DaveyL wrote:Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx



Interesting article. Good to see that even the pro's with all the coaching and science back up still have to do a lot of trial and error to find what works.
I guess that only on a pan flat course could you apply an FTP x % over a set distance to maximise your pacing.

In the hilly 32 I did on Saturday the first 500 yards or so were up hill into a headwind, Depite my thoughts being on starting moderatley, I was quickly up to the 90% of MHR.
I think I probably went too hard on the first 11 mile lap as I suffered towards the end.
Did enough to finish 6th though in 1'31'33, though some 7 mins down on the winner. Was pleased enough for first ride on the TT bike.

Now to drum into my head that a moderate start = faster overall. I will experiment in club midweek 10's to crack the pacing strategy.

Thanks to all who have chipped into this thread, much food for thought

That's still a good result. You will improve as you get used to the TT bike. Do as much training on it as you can.

Pacing: this is so hard to get your head around because it just feels wrong. I understood the concept quite well but it took me over a dozen races last year to sort of get the hang of it. Even then I still messed it up when there was a bit of pressure on, like in the British TT champs. Started steady but hit the first hill too hard and paid for it on the second lap. Luckily I ended up too far down on the winner for it to have mattered. It was just annoying.
Jeff Jones

Product manager, Sports

celbianchi
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Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 20:45 pm

Postby celbianchi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:05 pm

Jeff Jones wrote:
celbianchi wrote:
DaveyL wrote:Just came across this article on TT pacing by Allen Lim, the Garmin-Slipstream coach:

http://www.saris.com/athletes/PermaLink ... ffb8b.aspx



Interesting article. Good to see that even the pro's with all the coaching and science back up still have to do a lot of trial and error to find what works.
I guess that only on a pan flat course could you apply an FTP x % over a set distance to maximise your pacing.

In the hilly 32 I did on Saturday the first 500 yards or so were up hill into a headwind, Depite my thoughts being on starting moderatley, I was quickly up to the 90% of MHR.
I think I probably went too hard on the first 11 mile lap as I suffered towards the end.
Did enough to finish 6th though in 1'31'33, though some 7 mins down on the winner. Was pleased enough for first ride on the TT bike.

Now to drum into my head that a moderate start = faster overall. I will experiment in club midweek 10's to crack the pacing strategy.

Thanks to all who have chipped into this thread, much food for thought

That's still a good result. You will improve as you get used to the TT bike. Do as much training on it as you can.

Pacing: this is so hard to get your head around because it just feels wrong. I understood the concept quite well but it took me over a dozen races last year to sort of get the hang of it. Even then I still messed it up when there was a bit of pressure on, like in the British TT champs. Started steady but hit the first hill too hard and paid for it on the second lap. Luckily I ended up too far down on the winner for it to have mattered. It was just annoying.


Cheers Jeff, I was pleased enough with the result. Your post a few back in this thread about how your head says "must go as hard as possible" is what strikes a chord with me the most. As a roadie who climbs ok, I more than hold my own on the hilly parts, just need to curb some climbing enthusiasm.
It's all good though - now I just need to strike a balance between being fit for TT's and being fit for road racing. I am scared of being below my average at both by trying to do a balanced season.
Doesn't affect the pros though I guess.


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