100 points for 2nd cat ?

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lyn1
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby lyn1 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 09:22 am

ju5t1n wrote:I’m not in favour.

If someone is good enough to race as a second cat then they should race as a second cat. That’s the purpose of the category system … you race against people of a similar ability to yourself. Also, it’s difficult to accumulate large numbers points in 3rd cat races – even a road race win only bags you 15 points. So there would be a lot of very good riders staying in 3rd cat for a lot longer.

Average speeds in 3/4 races are already high enough to be a barrier to entry to many who are new to racing. Unless there are significantly more 4th cat only races added to the calendar then I think this change would put new riders off.


If that’s the purpose then it fails, for many of the reasons highlighted in the thread e.g. some riders doing shed loads of over rewarded chippers and moving into cats. they cannot handle (some on ego trips others because they like to race regularly ), others avoiding racing and remaining in a cat e.g. to pot hunt, to avoid heavy travel with fewer races, avoid influence of track points. There is also a suggestion that 1st cat. has no “value”. The only way it will work is if those in a given category are homogeneous and races are category specific, but that is not viable. As soon as riders start to manipulate their cat. and cats. are combined (e.g. E,1,2) there are wide disparities. It would be far easier to scrap the points system, and all the unnecessary work of providing new licences, doing all the calculations and producing “rankings” that are often a joke. Just categorise races and restrict entry to some categories. So the tier 1 races would be by invitation to teams only and could include around 20-25 or so top road & crit. races. At the other end the beginner’s races could be restricted to new entrants e.g. license held for less than 2 years. It probably needs a couple of intermediate categories with suitable restrictions and controlled prize pots to avoid pot hunters. Restrictions could then apply to prevent riders dropping down too far or riding up too far, with the occasional BC dispensation for those with “exceptional” results. It would then be up to riders to decide where to ride providing they fulfil the requirements for that cat. of race.
The problem with tinkering with the current points system is that in addressing some of the flaws, you merely create problems elswhere.

Tom Butcher
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Oct 31, 2012 09:52 am

As with most suggestions there is some merit in that. However as soon as you start introducing restrictions as to who can race in what event I think you are back at the category system we have now. How else do you restrict entry to certain categories of races ?

The only real alternative to categories is just having a free for all - enter what you want and let the race organisers select the field. I've seen some suggest that and again I can see it has some advantages but again I think the disadvantages are such that it's not an advance on what we have now.

Going back to riders who avoid getting points to move up categories. I take OldWelshmans point about avoiding first cat - especially if the points have been gained through Masters or track events - we can all understand that nobody wants to limit themselves to racing with Elites when they will have no chance. That's a bit different though to riders who avoid getting 2nd cat - I have to agree with whoever said what kind of pussy would do that because there are loads of 2/3/4 races to do and the jump whilst significant shouldn't mean anyone getting 40 points as a 3rd is outclassed.
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amaferanga
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 31, 2012 09:55 am

Around here the disincentive to moving from 3rd Cat to 2nd Cat is for most probably that there are fewer local races you can do without doing E/1/2's. The step up from a hilly 2/3/4 race to a hilly E/1/2 race when you might be racing against the GB development riders and riders from the likes of Raleigh and Rapha is HUGE. So as a decent-but-not-exceptional 2nd Cat you have a choice between a long drive some weekends to find a 2/3/4 or getting destroyed in a local E/1/2 race. And while getting dropped after a lap or 2 might be ok and character building occasionally, if it happens a lot it can be pretty soul destroying (speaking partly from experience there).
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walsht1105
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby walsht1105 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:50 am

I think if you separate crit, track, road points (i.e. so your license shows category for crit, track, road) and restrict full timers/pros from racing with the true amatuers the problems will be solved. There should be the option for an amatuer to race with the full timers/pros but not vice versa. The only problem left then would be supply and demand, most likely that the Pro/Full timers don't have enough races to do locally, but you would assume if you're full time/pro you would be prepared travel because that is part of a job.

Tom Butcher
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:20 am

amaferanga wrote:Around here the disincentive to moving from 3rd Cat to 2nd Cat is for most probably that there are fewer local races you can do without doing E/1/2's. The step up from a hilly 2/3/4 race to a hilly E/1/2 race when you might be racing against the GB development riders and riders from the likes of Raleigh and Rapha is HUGE. So as a decent-but-not-exceptional 2nd Cat you have a choice between a long drive some weekends to find a 2/3/4 or getting destroyed in a local E/1/2 race. And while getting dropped after a lap or 2 might be ok and character building occasionally, if it happens a lot it can be pretty soul destroying (speaking partly from experience there).


All the East Mids league races are going to be 2/3/4 - there's plenty of 2/3/4 at Mallory and Darley - I know these aren't right on your doorstep but they aren't a million miles away - probably mostly within 90 minutes of Sheffield? All the West Mids league are 2/3/4 too.
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lyn1
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby lyn1 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:55 am

Tom Butcher wrote:As with most suggestions there is some merit in that. However as soon as you start introducing restrictions as to who can race in what event I think you are back at the category system we have now. How else do you restrict entry to certain categories of races ?


I do not have all the answers Tom, it's an idea for discussion, but it seems better to consider alternatives rather than tinker with a flawed system that involves unnecessary complexity, significant time and resource to manage and still creates loads of argument. We can’t even agree on what constitutes the cat 2 points boundary :D I would suggest points are unnecessary as races can be categorised and suitably described. Riders then choose where to race within some simple limits, based on race description. Keep track separate. Possibly 3 licenses...

Team.. riders registered for Tier 1 races
Open.. All who are not in other 2
Novice...(first 2 years)

BC to consider dispensations in "exceptional cases"

Eg...needs more thought and info. But along the lines:

Events
Tier 1 Teams only by invitation (top 20-25 races) Premiers & Tour Series is like that now
Tier 2 Longer road and faster crit events.. includes some Team and Open riders, no Novice riders
Tier 3 Shorter road and less fast crits, includes Open and Novice but no Team riders
Tier 4 Beginners/novices..restricted

Any prize money in Tier 2-4 should be spread well down the field to avoid people riding down to fill their pockets.

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amaferanga
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:05 pm

Tom Butcher wrote:All the East Mids league races are going to be 2/3/4 - there's plenty of 2/3/4 at Mallory and Darley - I know these aren't right on your doorstep but they aren't a million miles away - probably mostly within 90 minutes of Sheffield? All the West Mids league are 2/3/4 too.


There are races if you're prepared to drive quite a way, which some folk aren't I guess. I was really just thinking about road races, not crits (Darely Moor just doesn't appeal to me). I guess what we miss in South Yorkshire is a midweek BC series. Everyone does the NMRRL TLI on Thursday nights, which is good training, but no good if you're after BC points.

I'm moving over the Pennines soon anyway so what does or doesn't develop around here won't really affect me.....
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Pross
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Pross » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:30 pm

I'd start by having reduced points in circuit races. I suspect many of those that move up 'before their time' do so as a result of racing frequently in closed road circuit races therefore either reduce the points for regional and national B circuit races. I still find it odd that the winner of a stage in a regional A stage race only gets the same points as the winner of a regional B circuit race. I would also make the move from 4th cat to 3rd cat an experience based system rather than points based with new riders having to complete say 5 races and be signed off in each by the comms as having ridden safely (I acknowledge that this won't make much realistic difference as 3rd cats still often race with the 4th cat riders but hopefully having an onus on racing safely rather than inexperienced riders sprinting for a point or two will increase safety).

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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby jibberjim » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:31 pm

Finding promoters willing to promote Nat C 1/2/3 races would help too, but I guess the parts of the country that can't promote 2/3 or 2/3/4 due to numbers aren't that likely to find any incentive to.
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Tom Butcher
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Oct 31, 2012 13:26 pm

amaferanga wrote:Around here the disincentive to moving from 3rd Cat to 2nd Cat is for most probably that there are fewer local races you can do without doing E/1/2's. The step up from a hilly 2/3/4 race to a hilly E/1/2 race when you might be racing against the GB development riders and riders from the likes of Raleigh and Rapha is HUGE. So as a decent-but-not-exceptional 2nd Cat you have a choice between a long drive some weekends to find a 2/3/4 or getting destroyed in a local E/1/2 race. And while getting dropped after a lap or 2 might be ok and character building occasionally, if it happens a lot it can be pretty soul destroying (speaking partly from experience there).


Maybe another example of how a system that suits one area doesn't suit another then ? I'm in Derby so not that far away and all the East Mids and West Mids league races are open road and 234 - but whereas I might have to drive between 45 and 90 minutes tops to a West Mids league race I suppose from S Yorks you add another hour on top which I agree is getting to be a bit of a trip. Round here I'd say 2/3/4s are far more common than 3/4s - and 4ths only just about non-existent on the open road. 4th cat was pretty meaning less but I think they have some 4ths only at Mallory now.

Jim - is the Nat C a new category - I wasn't aware you were allowed to promote 1/2/3 events under the rules as they stood.
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby jibberjim » Wed Oct 31, 2012 13:41 pm

Tom Butcher wrote:Jim - is the Nat C a new category - I wasn't aware you were allowed to promote 1/2/3 events under the rules as they stood.


It's an old category that disappeared for a bit I believe but came back this year - in the 2011 minutes you'll see
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/ ... inutes.pdf

Technical Regulation 6.3 - Event Classification
Introduce classification for ‘National C’ races and re-number subsequent clauses :
6.3.1.3 National C - open to senior male 1st, 2nd and 3rd category riders, final year Junior male 1st, 2nd and 3rd category riders and Senior female Elite, 1st and 2nd category riders. Where the minimum distanc e for a road race is not achieved, the race shall be open to all Junior male 1st, 2nd and 3rd category riders and all Junior female 1st and 2nd category riders only.
6.3.1.3.1 The minimum distance for a road race shall be 100 km.

CARRIED


however I never saw anything come of it with an actual promotion.
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby jibberjim » Wed Oct 31, 2012 13:43 pm

Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Oct 31, 2012 14:40 pm

Jim - There's no mention of National C on the website or the rulebook that I can see - I'm not doubting that a motion may have been passed to reintroduce it but if they haven't let anyone know it exists that might explain the lack of promotions ? Points for circuit races wont have been updated yet maybe but they are still showing as 60 for a National B win and don't races from some time soon count towards 2013 too - so if that has changed nationally you'd expect them to publicise it soon.
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Pross
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Pross » Wed Oct 31, 2012 14:44 pm

jibberjim wrote:Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.


Most recent one around here (end of September) was 10 points for the 4th only race and 15 points for the 2/3/4 race. It was a 'crit' on an outdoor velodrome. In the 2/3/4 race there were only 9 finishers so anyone finishing got at least 2 points, it's ludicrous. The previous race in the series only had 8 people finish. At the very least the points should be reduced if less than a certain number of people finish.

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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby jibberjim » Wed Oct 31, 2012 14:49 pm

Pross wrote:
jibberjim wrote:Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.


Most recent one around here (end of September) was 10 points for the 4th only race and 15 points for the 2/3/4 race. It was a 'crit' on an outdoor velodrome. In the 2/3/4 race there were only 9 finishers so anyone finishing got at least 2 points, it's ludicrous. The previous race in the series only had 8 people finish. At the very least the points should be reduced if less than a certain number of people finish.


That's a 2013 rule for sure - the same as December -> Feb can only be 10pts for a win too.
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Pross » Wed Oct 31, 2012 15:20 pm

Shame, I was going to enter next year and in the 3 race series I'd have had a decent chance of finally getting a 3rd cat licence :lol:

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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby BigMat » Wed Oct 31, 2012 21:09 pm

oldwelshman wrote:
BigMat wrote:I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

What an arsehole, think before you write.
What about a vet that could be 60 years old, wins two medals at world masters and UK champs and gets almost enough to get 1st cat? Do you think a 60 yearold would want to ride as a 1st cat?
I know a couple of guys that dont race bcf becuase they are a second cat technically.
Last year I had 185 points as second cat and alsmost made 1st cat which I did not want to as it limits races I can do for training to 1st cat races, so that makes me a pussy also?


Fair enough, maybe should have thought about that one a bit more. I was looking at it from persepctive of 3rd to 2nd cat which is what I thought the thread was about, but apologies if I caused offence. It does seem that there are issues that maybe need addressing around 2nd to 1st cat. Actually, reading my quote back, I still think its pretty sad to "deliberately stay a level below your own ability just so you can pick up wins against weaker opposition". Not sure why that opinion makes me an arsehole. :roll: Fair enough if you have other reasons for wanting to stay where you are.

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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby oldwelshman » Wed Oct 31, 2012 22:04 pm

BigMat wrote:
oldwelshman wrote:
BigMat wrote:I can't see me ever making 100 points at 3rd cat, I just don't have time to race enough and the points on offer for 3rd cat races are too low (I guess you can always do 2/3 races). 40 seems about right as far as I can see. What kind of pussy deliberately stays a level below his own ability just so he can pick up wins against weaker opposition? That's just pathetic.

What an arsehole, think before you write.
What about a vet that could be 60 years old, wins two medals at world masters and UK champs and gets almost enough to get 1st cat? Do you think a 60 yearold would want to ride as a 1st cat?
I know a couple of guys that dont race bcf becuase they are a second cat technically.
Last year I had 185 points as second cat and alsmost made 1st cat which I did not want to as it limits races I can do for training to 1st cat races, so that makes me a pussy also?


Fair enough, maybe should have thought about that one a bit more. I was looking at it from persepctive of 3rd to 2nd cat which is what I thought the thread was about, but apologies if I caused offence. It does seem that there are issues that maybe need addressing around 2nd to 1st cat. Actually, reading my quote back, I still think its pretty sad to "deliberately stay a level below your own ability just so you can pick up wins against weaker opposition". Not sure why that opinion makes me an arsehole. :roll: Fair enough if you have other reasons for wanting to stay where you are.

I cannot see how the new systems would improve what you say is happeneing, in fact it would make it worse.
How do you reckon riders stay down a category so they can pick up wins against weaker riders? If thats the case they would get more points and become a 2nd cat surely? Then with new system they would have to win more races.
All this will do is make more third cat riders, not sure whats the point of that.

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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby oldwelshman » Wed Oct 31, 2012 22:19 pm

Pross wrote:
jibberjim wrote:Pross - the reduced points for _midweek_ circuit races has already been done for midweek events - 10point maximum like the winter series. I'm not sure if that is national or regional, but it applies to all the London area crit circuits which suggests national.


Most recent one around here (end of September) was 10 points for the 4th only race and 15 points for the 2/3/4 race. It was a 'crit' on an outdoor velodrome. In the 2/3/4 race there were only 9 finishers so anyone finishing got at least 2 points, it's ludicrous. The previous race in the series only had 8 people finish. At the very least the points should be reduced if less than a certain number of people finish.

Not going to work Pross. So if your in a hard race, get in a break of say 4 and some riders pack , as they do, then you say instead of 15 poijts for a win you get less? Or if it is pissing down and 10 poeple turn up and ride, you say becuase the others stayed in bed, that the ones that rode get less points than the ones that ride in sunny weather?
If people get easy points it does not matter, they will waste their money riding 1,2 races as they will get smacked then be back down following year so whats the point of chasing points (excus the pun) to get higher category?

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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby jibberjim » Wed Oct 31, 2012 22:28 pm

oldwelshman wrote:If people get easy points it does not matter, they will waste their money riding 1,2 races as they will get smacked then be back down following year so whats the point of chasing points (excus the pun) to get higher category?


Isn't the problem that they stop racing - and because bike racing is unusual in that needs people of a similar ability to have a race so if people stop racing it reduces the chance from everyone? Essentially the current structure gives people a big disincentive to upgrade (and therefore race at all once they're close) because if they do then they lose the rest of this season - and all of next in races they feel they can compete in.

As Stuart Benstead wrote in the minutes of the 2011 meeting I mentioned above - if there are 5 ability categories, there should be 5 categories of races.

Yes racers who chase points pointlessly will get a kicking - but riders getting a kicking in a category above may well be harming the racers in the category below who have one less person to race. I found before I gave up racing the 3rd and even the 2/3 races around london very dull, and would've welcomed a bigger distinction between the two with stronger more aggressive racing in the 2nds. More points to upgrade is a route to that I think, it may not be the one I'd pick, but it's a route.

I didn't find the same racing further away from London, but that could be the circuits as much as the riders as I only did races that were more interesting to me. It's probably academic for me anyway as I'm not sure I'll tempted back to 2 or 3 racing at all anyway.
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