Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

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rsands
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby rsands » Mon Jan 07, 2013 18:26 pm

I use this stuff in my bottles:

http://highfive.co.uk/product/energy/energysource

Doesnt turn my stomach and tastes good too in citrus. Also tried the xtreme version with caffeine and seems good. Your body can absorb carbs at 60/hour average. They say with theirs they can get that up to 90/hour...I am no scientist so cant measure that! But the logic behind it makes sense. add Fructose to it and your body will absorb it alongside carbs in a different way - meaning you effectively getting more. read here:

http://highfive.co.uk/high5-faster-and- ... d-caffeine

I feel good when taking it and on long training rides i felt very strong

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Mon Jan 07, 2013 20:44 pm

And how much are they paying you to spam this thread?

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Mon Jan 07, 2013 21:18 pm

I suppose there becomes a point where a drink contains so much carbohydrate that it stops being refreshing and it fails to quenching thirst.

Instead of having two 6% carb drinks try one with 0% carbohydrate and one with the equivalent of however many gels you would normally take for the duration plus however much water you would drink along with them (I reckon this would work out to be about 360ml at 18% for a 3.5h race during which you might take 3 gels). That way you have one drink solely for rehydration and one solely for energy. Much easier than fumbling about in your back pockets and getting sticky handlebars.




I have enough gels to last me 3 or 4 more seasons so I'm not bothered trying to save my money. I just think if there's an easier and cheaper way of getting an energy boost during a race then why not use it...

rsands
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby rsands » Tue Jan 08, 2013 00:40 am

Herbsman wrote:And how much are they paying you to spam this thread?


Sorry was that directed to me there??

Trev The Rev
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Jan 08, 2013 13:47 pm

rsands wrote:I use this stuff in my bottles:

http://highfive.co.uk/product/energy/energysource

Doesnt turn my stomach and tastes good too in citrus. Also tried the xtreme version with caffeine and seems good. Your body can absorb carbs at 60/hour average. They say with theirs they can get that up to 90/hour...I am no scientist so cant measure that! But the logic behind it makes sense. add Fructose to it and your body will absorb it alongside carbs in a different way - meaning you effectively getting more. read here:

http://highfive.co.uk/high5-faster-and- ... d-caffeine

I feel good when taking it and on long training rides i felt very strong


Read the science. From their own article.


Quote(my bold)
. He was told to cutout all energy products in the days leading up to the lab test and was told to
avoid foods high in C4 carbohydrate–mainly sugar and plant based foods.
Henning also had to perform a depletion training session a couple of days before
testing. This involved a two to three hour intense training session at 80-90 per
cent of maximum heart rate. The aim of this session is to be glycogen depleting,
to empty any glycogen stores. If this wasn’t enough Henning was told to fast after his evening meal the night
beforehand, which meant no breakfast. It might not sound that tough but these world class Ironman athletes eat a lot.We have seen Henning eat and know he would have been feeling wobbly before he even kicked his leg over the bike. End quote:

Now would any rational person start an endurance race in that state? Henning performed but compared to what? No control, no blinding, in fact everyone knew exactly what they were doing, making an advert. All the test proves is that Henning can consume a lot of High 5 - and carbohydrate helps performance in endurance events if you turn up at the start depleted of glycogen stores.

What they should be testing is if High 5 has a performance benefit if the athlete turns up fully fed after a proper meal the night before and a decent meal a few hours before the start and if High 5 works better than honey (which is a mixture of sugar & fructose), bananas, pork pies, dolphin friendly tuna on toast, or water sugar & salt with a double espresso.

rsands
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby rsands » Wed Jan 09, 2013 00:48 am

You should put yourself forward as the tester (i am not being smart). Its just what the normal test would be - totally deplete them to see if their product works in absorption, etc. Your never going to get a firm answer from science in this - its impossible...too many variables in real life. But i am stating my opinion on what I feel when using the product. Every body is different otherwise we would all just train the exact same - why do we not? cause everyone is different. This product may work for you...it may not. Sometimes we dont need to uproot every minor detail in the test phase to immediately say the products crap.

Why dont you email them and ask them to do your test on an average diet, average meal before race, average drinks before a race...one problem whats the average?

Trev The Rev
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Jan 09, 2013 08:55 am

rsands wrote:You should put yourself forward as the tester (i am not being smart). Its just what the normal test would be - totally deplete them to see if their product works in absorption, etc. Your never going to get a firm answer from science in this - its impossible...too many variables in real life. But i am stating my opinion on what I feel when using the product. Every body is different otherwise we would all just train the exact same - why do we not? cause everyone is different. This product may work for you...it may not. Sometimes we dont need to uproot every minor detail in the test phase to immediately say the products crap.

Why dont you email them and ask them to do your test on an average diet, average meal before race, average drinks before a race...one problem whats the average?


No reason why they can't be tested having eaten for several days a controlled balanced diet. The point I'm making is simple. Testing someone in an already glycogen depleted state is obviously going to make the product look as if it works.

Fact is even when the athlete has fasted for 12 hours, carbohydrate does not improve performance until approx the 2 hour mark. If the athletes were not fasted, it is probable if not certain, carbohydrate would not improve performance for even longer.

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wilo13
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby wilo13 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 17:38 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
rsands wrote:You should put yourself forward as the tester (i am not being smart). Its just what the normal test would be - totally deplete them to see if their product works in absorption, etc. Your never going to get a firm answer from science in this - its impossible...too many variables in real life. But i am stating my opinion on what I feel when using the product. Every body is different otherwise we would all just train the exact same - why do we not? cause everyone is different. This product may work for you...it may not. Sometimes we dont need to uproot every minor detail in the test phase to immediately say the products crap.

Why dont you email them and ask them to do your test on an average diet, average meal before race, average drinks before a race...one problem whats the average?


No reason why they can't be tested having eaten for several days a controlled balanced diet. The point I'm making is simple. Testing someone in an already glycogen depleted state is obviously going to make the product look as if it works.

Fact is even when the athlete has fasted for 12 hours, carbohydrate does not improve performance until approx the 2 hour mark. If the athletes were not fasted, it is probable if not certain, carbohydrate would not improve performance for even longer.


I was about to make the same point. It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise. Therefore rides of less than an hour I have water. Rides up to two hours I have water and if its hot (not very often in this country) a non calorie electrolyte tablet. Rides of 2 hours more I still drink water put will take some food with me. For really long rides I might have one bottle of water and one bottle of a 4 part carb 1 part protein energy mix (5kg tub for like 30 quid). It used to make me chuckle when people at the gym were slurping on lucozades when they were doing a 20 min run on the treadmill.
Carrot cake or Flapjack?

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Thu Jan 10, 2013 21:36 pm

wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence

Trev The Rev
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:14 am

Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence. With respect to performance - around the 2 hour mark is where ingesting carbohydrate starts to have an effect.

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:40 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug

Trev The Rev
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:03 am

Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug


Sorry, you are wrong about this, the evidence does show around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental carbohydrate during exercise begins to be beneficial.

It is for those who claim certain products improve performance to produce evidence.

You don't agree with me, then fine, but is there really any need to resort to name calling?

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 14:25 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug


Sorry, you are wrong about this, the evidence does show around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental carbohydrate during exercise begins to be beneficial.

It is for those who claim certain products improve performance to produce evidence.

You don't agree with me, then fine, but is there really any need to resort to name calling?

Yes.

Let me explain to you. If someone makes a claim that something is or isn't true, it is up to the person making the claim to provide evidence to back them up. It is not up to the person questioning those claims to provide evidence. Got it?

Trev The Rev
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Jan 11, 2013 15:00 pm

Here is one of the most often quoted studies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3525502

The placebo worked as well as carbohydrate for 3 hours. Coggan has recently confirmed that the tests were done after a 12 hour fast (which he tells me is normal) he also confirms that there is no performance benefit in ingesting carbohydrate for about 2 hours.

More.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6390613

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6350247

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3053587

No one is saying carbohydrate does not work for events lasting over about 2 hours, carbs enable you to carry on longer, that is rather different to carbohydrate allowing better performance over races lasting less than 2 hours.

NB; these results are after a 12 hour fast, it is probable carbohydrate would not help for even longer if the subjects had taken on carbohydrate closer to the tests.

Herbsman is now on my ignore list.

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wilo13
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby wilo13 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 16:42 pm

Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug


Sorry, you are wrong about this, the evidence does show around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental carbohydrate during exercise begins to be beneficial.

It is for those who claim certain products improve performance to produce evidence.

You don't agree with me, then fine, but is there really any need to resort to name calling?

Yes.

Let me explain to you. If someone makes a claim that something is or isn't true, it is up to the person making the claim to provide evidence to back them up. It is not up to the person questioning those claims to provide evidence. Got it?


I don't want to get in a forum battle but as Trev has pointed out there are numerous studies which show carbohydrate uptake is only significantly beneficial roughly 2hrs into endurance sport. Being a sport science graduate from Loughborough (with a first I might add) and reading a lot of papers on the topic as well as many of my friends being masters students on this topic I think I probably know more than you. If you really want me to I can happily send over a few journal articles for you to read.
Carrot cake or Flapjack?

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 18:10 pm

wilo13 wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug


Sorry, you are wrong about this, the evidence does show around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental carbohydrate during exercise begins to be beneficial.

It is for those who claim certain products improve performance to produce evidence.

You don't agree with me, then fine, but is there really any need to resort to name calling?

Yes.

Let me explain to you. If someone makes a claim that something is or isn't true, it is up to the person making the claim to provide evidence to back them up. It is not up to the person questioning those claims to provide evidence. Got it?


I don't want to get in a forum battle but as Trev has pointed out there are numerous studies which show carbohydrate uptake is only significantly beneficial roughly 2hrs into endurance sport. Being a sport science graduate from Loughborough (with a first I might add) and reading a lot of papers on the topic as well as many of my friends being masters students on this topic I think I probably know more than you. If you really want me to I can happily send over a few journal articles for you to read.
If you're a graduate then you should know damned well that "I know more than you" is not a valid argument. Arguing from a point of authority doesn't make your argument any more valid if you don't back it up with evidence...

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wilo13
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby wilo13 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 19:03 pm

Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
wilo13 wrote:It has been proven you do not need to take on carbs until 90-120 minutes into exercise.
If you're going to come with statements like that, you'd better come with evidence


Anyone who wishes to prove otherwise should produce evidence.

It doesn't work like that you mug


Sorry, you are wrong about this, the evidence does show around the 2 h mark is where ingestion of supplemental carbohydrate during exercise begins to be beneficial.

It is for those who claim certain products improve performance to produce evidence.

You don't agree with me, then fine, but is there really any need to resort to name calling?

Yes.

Let me explain to you. If someone makes a claim that something is or isn't true, it is up to the person making the claim to provide evidence to back them up. It is not up to the person questioning those claims to provide evidence. Got it?


I don't want to get in a forum battle but as Trev has pointed out there are numerous studies which show carbohydrate uptake is only significantly beneficial roughly 2hrs into endurance sport. Being a sport science graduate from Loughborough (with a first I might add) and reading a lot of papers on the topic as well as many of my friends being masters students on this topic I think I probably know more than you. If you really want me to I can happily send over a few journal articles for you to read.
If you're a graduate then you should know damned well that "I know more than you" is not a valid argument. Arguing from a point of authority doesn't make your argument any more valid if you don't back it up with evidence...


If you read all of my post I did say I am more than happy to send you some journals (evidence) for you to read if you like. Time to go eat some carbs for dinner!
Carrot cake or Flapjack?

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Herbsman
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby Herbsman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 20:03 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:Herbsman is now on my ignore list.

Image

What was it Trev said about people using the 'ignore' function? Something about 'brainwashed idiots' I seem to remember.

Seems he has added a lot of people to his ignore list, recently and seems to take great pleasure in telling people when he's done so.

Also interesting how he just ignores anything he doesn't like. Very mature...

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FransJacques
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby FransJacques » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:08 am

Thanks for the Coggan, Coyle abstracts.

While I can't pretent to understand exactly what they're supporting or dis-proving, it's interesting to see what testing has shown.

I'm now wondering if the benefit i get from caffeine gels in a CX race is more the caffeine and less the carbs in the gel? (I take them 10-15 mins before the start)
When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
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ben@31
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Re: Energy gels-are they worth it (vs strong energy drink)?

Postby ben@31 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 22:15 pm

Herbsman wrote:Note that I posted this in the Amateur Race subforum. Are you going to stop and have cake during a race?


Errr why not? If you can't stop for a sit down bacon butty, cup of tea and a read of the newspaper mid race then you're not cycling fast enough.


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