Two female police officers killed.

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Yellow Peril
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Yellow Peril » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:48 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:I believe that capital punishment isn't justice, it's revenge. For us to declare our society is better than those who would disobey it's laws to harm others,I believe we must show that we won't stoop to their level of barbarism.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's what I believe.


Very noble. Would you not be prepared to qualify that by saying it is a belief based wholly on not having been directly affected by a capital crime? or is it a belief based on such a terrible experience?

I'd like to think like you do but I just don't think I could in that situation.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:52 pm

I have no personal experience of a capital crime, no. I like to think that in that terrible situation I would be able to stick by my beliefs but, like many such things, I've no way of saying.

That, to my mind, is one of the reasons why justice should be out of the hands of those affected by such crimes.

Again, I'll never tell anybody I'm right and they're wrong on such a massive, naunced issue. Just that I respectfully disagree with them.
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fatreg
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby fatreg » Wed Sep 19, 2012 12:57 pm

Because you under your own steam took it upon yourself that you would today end someone's life. Not just someone, someone's child, maybe someone's parent. What on this god given earth entitles you to choose to end someones life? This is not medieval England we are not fighting the war of the roses anymore, the murdered at a guess were not foes nor friends for that matter.

To be brutally honest I think the punishment should outweigh the crime, you kill, you, your father, mother and siblings die.

I'm well aware my views are somewhat Draconian but crime shouldn't pay and until it doesn't it will still happen and if it happens afterwards well then thats evolution at work.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:06 pm

To be brutally honest I think the punishment should outweigh the crime, you kill, you, your father, mother and siblings die.


EH?! You're going to have to explain how that represents justice on any scale
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fatreg
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby fatreg » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:23 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:
To be brutally honest I think the punishment should outweigh the crime, you kill, you, your father, mother and siblings die.


EH?! You're going to have to explain how that represents justice on any scale


There is no justice, that's the point, the punishment outweighs the crime. People wouldnt commit crime, the punishment is supposed to be a deterrent, kill, get sometimes as little as 10 years inside, how is that a deterrent? Think of your actions before, shoot, if I do this I'm going to die as are my parents and my brothers, actually might not do this, and ok, I'm homeless, if I kil I get a nice warm bed for a good number of years. Bang. Let's do this.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:31 pm

fatreg wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:
To be brutally honest I think the punishment should outweigh the crime, you kill, you, your father, mother and siblings die.


EH?! You're going to have to explain how that represents justice on any scale


There is no justice, that's the point, the punishment outweighs the crime. People wouldnt commit crime, the punishment is supposed to be a deterrent, kill, get sometimes as little as 10 years inside, how is that a deterrent? Think of your actions before, shoot, if I do this I'm going to die as are my parents and my brothers, actually might not do this, and ok, I'm homeless, if I kil I get a nice warm bed for a good number of years. Bang. Let's do this.



That actually works really well in countries that have a death penalty.

Look, no crime!
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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Frank the tank
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Frank the tank » Wed Sep 19, 2012 13:50 pm

fatreg wrote:Because you under your own steam took it upon yourself that you would today end someone's life. Not just someone, someone's child, maybe someone's parent. What on this god given earth entitles you to choose to end someones life? This is not medieval England we are not fighting the war of the roses anymore, the murdered at a guess were not foes nor friends for that matter.

To be brutally honest I think the punishment should outweigh the crime, you kill, you, your father, mother and siblings die.

I'm well aware my views are somewhat Draconian but crime shouldn't pay and until it doesn't it will still happen and if it happens afterwards well then thats evolution at work.


But if you're an orphan or have no siblings, you'll be getting off "light". That's not fair they'd have to execute some random members of the extended family. :roll:
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby CanalRider » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:07 pm

He will hopefully go to prison for the rest of his natural life. He should be in total solitary with a bed and a bog. No TV's radios, PS3 etc and no do goody social workers. A weekly shower and that is only for the benefit of those that have to interact with the lowlife.
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby fatreg » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:12 pm

You'll find crime in civilised Arab countries is very low. Ksa, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar to name but a few.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:24 pm

fatreg wrote:You'll find crime in civilised Arab countries is very low. Ksa, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar to name but a few.


You'll also find you cna beat your wife to death for answering the phone.
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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Cleat Eastwood
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Cleat Eastwood » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:25 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:So you want to be able to lock people on no charge because there isn't enough evidence to charge them with something the police think they did?

Careful what you wish for...


The option was to detain him whilst police continued their investigations into whether he had shot a man dead in a pub. He was given bail. Whilst on bail he then murdered the father of the man he had killed in the pub - he went on the run. Whilst on the run he he lured and murdered 2 police women. Fearing he would then be targeted by the armed respsonse unit - the coward gave himself up.

Those chain of events would not have happened if bail had not been granted. 3 lives versus a couple of days locked in a cell. To me thats a no brainer.
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alfablue
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby alfablue » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:26 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:I have no personal experience of a capital crime, no. I like to think that in that terrible situation I would be able to stick by my beliefs but, like many such things, I've no way of saying.

That, to my mind, is one of the reasons why justice should be out of the hands of those affected by such crimes.

This is exactly right; victims or those close to them are not going to make objective judgements, that's why we favour the judiciary rather than the lynch mob in our society.

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Cleat Eastwood
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Cleat Eastwood » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:33 pm

alfablue wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:I have no personal experience of a capital crime, no. I like to think that in that terrible situation I would be able to stick by my beliefs but, like many such things, I've no way of saying.

That, to my mind, is one of the reasons why justice should be out of the hands of those affected by such crimes.

This is exactly right; victims or those close to them are not going to make objective judgements, that's why we favour the judiciary rather than the lynch mob in our society.


Except when it comes to dropping bombs on innocent iraqi children - then its "come on lynch mob, we're off for a fight".

By the way who are these lynch mob? No ones ever defined who they are except a vague description of someone whos opinion differs from the status quo.
The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:38 pm

Cleat Eastwood wrote:
disgruntledgoat wrote:So you want to be able to lock people on no charge because there isn't enough evidence to charge them with something the police think they did?

Careful what you wish for...


The option was to detain him whilst police continued their investigations into whether he had shot a man dead in a pub. He was given bail. Whilst on bail he then murdered the father of the man he had killed in the pub - he went on the run. Whilst on the run he he lured and murdered 2 police women. Fearing he would then be targeted by the armed respsonse unit - the coward gave himself up.

Those chain of events would not have happened if bail had not been granted. 3 lives versus a couple of days locked in a cell. To me thats a no brainer.


Except they didn't have evidence to charge him with those murders, or detain him further. Otherwise they would have.
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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pb21
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby pb21 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:40 pm

fatreg wrote:I'm well aware my views are somewhat Draconian but crime shouldn't pay and until it doesn't it will still happen and if it happens afterwards well then thats evolution at work.


I dont think he is going to get any kind of payment for this crime?!

Also, are you suggesting there is a genetic link to committing crime?

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Daz555
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Daz555 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:02 pm

fatreg wrote:You'll find crime in civilised Arab countries is very low. Ksa, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar to name but a few.

Civilised? :shock:
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CambsNewbie
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby CambsNewbie » Thu Sep 20, 2012 08:50 am

Well back at work last night saw the best of humanity and the worst..

Was stopped in the street by a lady who was nearly in tears wanting to express her sorrow and her admiration for the work police officers do.

Then had to deal with the usual nuisance youths who thought it would be funny to hide behind some bins and jump out as I arrived making various 'gansta' phrases and 'pop pop'... One of them 'if I had a gun you'd be dead, you get me? Innit.' me 'no if you had a gun you'd probably blown your fingers off. Now run home to mummy, Darren, that's a good boy, and pull your jeans up, I don't want to see your underwear. Thank you.'

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natrix
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby natrix » Thu Sep 20, 2012 09:29 am

One of the problems with bringing back the death penalty is what do you do about miscarriages of justice??

What if we'd hung the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6?? The police and the CPS are only human, they make mistakes like everybody else. If you lock up the wrong person you can let them out when the error is realised, but if you hang them.....................

fatreg
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby fatreg » Thu Sep 20, 2012 09:32 am

I believe the term beyond reasonable doubt comes into play.

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Cleat Eastwood
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Cleat Eastwood » Thu Sep 20, 2012 09:40 am

natrix wrote:One of the problems with bringing back the death penalty is what do you do about miscarriages of justice??

What if we'd hung the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6?? The police and the CPS are only human, they make mistakes like everybody else. If you lock up the wrong person you can let them out when the error is realised, but if you hang them.....................


But they were stitched up and victims of high level government conspiracy as were the shrewsbury two (all even numbers you notice). If the law were impartial such miscarriages wouldn't happen - in fact if we had anything like a free and open society such miscarriages of justice would be a thing of the past, but as in life the state has enemies and every judge has a price....nothing will change.
The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.


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