Two female police officers killed.

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alfablue
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby alfablue » Thu Sep 20, 2012 14:19 pm

Indeed, secure hospitals are not intended to be punitive. They are however staffed by Nurses who are members of the Prison Officers' Association (which is a little odd), and the conditions that patients experience in a secure institution are not that pleasant. Anyone who thinks someone has got a soft option of getting indeterminate detention in a secure hospital rather than a fixed prison term, is very much mistaken in my view.

fatreg
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby fatreg » Thu Sep 20, 2012 14:52 pm

In these economic times why does Anders deserve to have money squandered on him when it could be put to much better use? It's not all about revenge, but keep him alive for 30 years at the cost of say £300 a year, so £108000 over 30 years or kill him, I know what makes more financial sense.

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Hoopdriver
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Hoopdriver » Thu Sep 20, 2012 14:56 pm

spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:I agree. With Breivik the better thing by far would have been to have declared him insane and put him away forever. By declaring him insane you pretty well invalidate and repudiate his ideas and spending the rest of your life in SuperMax (especially the US version) would be nobody's idea of a holiday.


Bit of a contradiction in your logic here

If they are insane, then they should not be punished and sent to prison, or do you think that being insane is a crime and deserves punishment?

If they are not insane, then you send them to your Supermax Prison but you have then not invalidated or repudiated his ideas

It may have passed your notice but dangerously insane people are generally locked up in very secure institutions.



These are NOT prisons.

We do have secure hospitals, but these are for treatment not punishment and the conditions any such person is held in is not punitive

Maybe not punitive, per se, but very unpleasant and, I dare say, exempkary to anyone who might contemplate a similar crime in the hope of 'getting off' with an insanity plea.

spen666
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby spen666 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 14:58 pm

Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:I agree. With Breivik the better thing by far would have been to have declared him insane and put him away forever. By declaring him insane you pretty well invalidate and repudiate his ideas and spending the rest of your life in SuperMax (especially the US version) would be nobody's idea of a holiday.


Bit of a contradiction in your logic here

If they are insane, then they should not be punished and sent to prison, or do you think that being insane is a crime and deserves punishment?

If they are not insane, then you send them to your Supermax Prison but you have then not invalidated or repudiated his ideas

It may have passed your notice but dangerously insane people are generally locked up in very secure institutions.



These are NOT prisons.

We do have secure hospitals, but these are for treatment not punishment and the conditions any such person is held in is not punitive

Maybe not punitive, per se, but very unpleasant and, I dare say, exempkary to anyone who might contemplate a similar crime in the hope of 'getting off' with an insanity plea.



so you are in favour of punishing the sick and ill?

nice attitude. Perhaps you want to round up and detain all those in wheelchairs as well, or is it only the mentally ill you want to punish?
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pb21
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby pb21 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:00 pm

fatreg wrote:In these economic times why does Anders deserve to have money squandered on him when it could be put to much better use? It's not all about revenge, but keep him alive for 30 years at the cost of say £300 a year, so £108000 over 30 years or kill him, I know what makes more financial sense.


So we should kill people because it is cheaper, in a monetary sense, than keeping them locked up?!

It’s probably cheaper to kill everyone sentenced to longer than five years or something...

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Yellow Peril
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Yellow Peril » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:01 pm

styxd wrote:
Capital punishment in the case of a capital crime doesn't have to be the only sentence but I see no reason why it cannot be an option


Because we don't live in the ******* dark ages

I consider myself to be a man of fairly liberal views


"But I still think the state should be allowed to kill people if it see's fit."

What the fark!


Got any friends or family in the Armed Forces? Ever wondered what that thing is that they carry on their shoulder and what it's for? or have you openly campaigned against every use of weapons by the services (including police) that has occurred in your lifetime?

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pb21
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby pb21 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:02 pm

spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
so you are in favour of punishing the sick and ill?

nice attitude. Perhaps you want to round up and detain all those in wheelchairs as well, or is it only the mentally ill you want to punish?


Whoever said anything about punishing sick and ill people?

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Hoopdriver
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Hoopdriver » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:03 pm

spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:I agree. With Breivik the better thing by far would have been to have declared him insane and put him away forever. By declaring him insane you pretty well invalidate and repudiate his ideas and spending the rest of your life in SuperMax (especially the US version) would be nobody's idea of a holiday.


Bit of a contradiction in your logic here

If they are insane, then they should not be punished and sent to prison, or do you think that being insane is a crime and deserves punishment?

If they are not insane, then you send them to your Supermax Prison but you have then not invalidated or repudiated his ideas

It may have passed your notice but dangerously insane people are generally locked up in very secure institutions.



These are NOT prisons.

We do have secure hospitals, but these are for treatment not punishment and the conditions any such person is held in is not punitive

Maybe not punitive, per se, but very unpleasant and, I dare say, exempkary to anyone who might contemplate a similar crime in the hope of 'getting off' with an insanity plea.



so you are in favour of punishing the sick and ill?

nice attitude. Perhaps you want to round up and detain all those in wheelchairs as well, or is it only the mentally ill you want to punish?

No, just the ones who commit mass murder. If it will make you feel better, I am perfectly willing for society to round up and detain all the able bodied mass murderers as well.
Last edited by Hoopdriver on Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Paulie W
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Paulie W » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:09 pm

fatreg wrote:In these economic times why does Anders deserve to have money squandered on him when it could be put to much better use? It's not all about revenge, but keep him alive for 30 years at the cost of say £300 a year, so £108000 over 30 years or kill him, I know what makes more financial sense.


Just so you know - in the US, the costs associated with a death sentence are higher than those with a sentence of life-imprisonment without parole.

styxd
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby styxd » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:11 pm

Yellow Peril wrote:
styxd wrote:
Capital punishment in the case of a capital crime doesn't have to be the only sentence but I see no reason why it cannot be an option


Because we don't live in the ******* dark ages

I consider myself to be a man of fairly liberal views


"But I still think the state should be allowed to kill people if it see's fit."

What the fark!


Got any friends or family in the Armed Forces? Ever wondered what that thing is that they carry on their shoulder and what it's for? or have you openly campaigned against every use of weapons by the services (including police) that has occurred in your lifetime?


Of course, I dont particularly like whats happening in Afghanistan.

But the two arent really comparable.

spen666
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby spen666 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:22 pm

pb21 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
so you are in favour of punishing the sick and ill?

nice attitude. Perhaps you want to round up and detain all those in wheelchairs as well, or is it only the mentally ill you want to punish?


Whoever said anything about punishing sick and ill people?



Think you need to read the recent posts talking about locking up the mentally ill in supermax prisons or making mental hospitals as unpleasant as possible
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Hoopdriver
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Hoopdriver » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:36 pm

spen666 wrote:
pb21 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
so you are in favour of punishing the sick and ill?

nice attitude. Perhaps you want to round up and detain all those in wheelchairs as well, or is it only the mentally ill you want to punish?


Whoever said anything about punishing sick and ill people?



Think you need to read the recent posts talking about locking up the mentally ill in supermax prisons or making mental hospitals as unpleasant as possible

I think you are the one who needs to read the posts a little more closely. Nobody said anything about making mental wards as npleasant as possible, only that maximum security wards WERE unpleasant. It us you who coloured in what other people wrote with melodramatic interpretations of your own.

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pb21
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby pb21 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 15:42 pm

Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
pb21 wrote:
spen666 wrote:
Hoopdriver wrote:
spen666 wrote:
so you are in favour of punishing the sick and ill?

nice attitude. Perhaps you want to round up and detain all those in wheelchairs as well, or is it only the mentally ill you want to punish?


Whoever said anything about punishing sick and ill people?



Think you need to read the recent posts talking about locking up the mentally ill in supermax prisons or making mental hospitals as unpleasant as possible

I think you are the one who needs to read the posts a little more closely. Nobody said anything about making mental wards as npleasant as possible, only that maximum security wards WERE unpleasant. It us you who coloured in what other people wrote with melodramatic interpretations of your own.


Exactly.

Frank the tank
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Frank the tank » Thu Sep 20, 2012 16:12 pm

Paulie W wrote:
fatreg wrote:In these economic times why does Anders deserve to have money squandered on him when it could be put to much better use? It's not all about revenge, but keep him alive for 30 years at the cost of say £300 a year, so £108000 over 30 years or kill him, I know what makes more financial sense.


Just so you know - in the US, the costs associated with a death sentence are higher than those with a sentence of life-imprisonment without parole.


I've heard this elsewhere,is it because of the drawn out appeals system etc?
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Hoopdriver
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Re: Two female police officers killed.

Postby Hoopdriver » Thu Sep 20, 2012 16:14 pm

Frank the tank wrote:
Paulie W wrote:
fatreg wrote:In these economic times why does Anders deserve to have money squandered on him when it could be put to much better use? It's not all about revenge, but keep him alive for 30 years at the cost of say £300 a year, so £108000 over 30 years or kill him, I know what makes more financial sense.


Just so you know - in the US, the costs associated with a death sentence are higher than those with a sentence of life-imprisonment without parole.


I've heard this elsewhere,is it because of the drawn out appeals system etc?

I believe that is part of it, as is the costs of the more exotic security measures on death row.


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