FAQ: increasing your base endurance/etc

When drugs don't work: training and health tips!

Postby Mark.Scp » Fri Dec 15, 2006 22:51 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jaijai</i>

I cannot believe it! I have been practising my trackstands and wouldnt you know it my base endurance has improved dramatically!Seriously though, I think someone in the know needs to mention base endurance mileage, and how to build on it without overtraining etc, as I am sure I am not the only one who over does things!Also what % of MHR we should be riding at for optimal endurance building.

"A legend in his own mind..."
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If i am right in sayingm, i think the 65-80% of your mhr (max HR) is the region to be training at in order to be improving base endurance.... correct me if i am wrong, please =D

Mark

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Postby woody-som » Sat Dec 16, 2006 17:31 pm

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If i am right in sayingm, i think the 65-80% of your mhr (max HR) is the region to be training at in order to be improving base endurance.... correct me if i am wrong, please =D

Mark

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According to the article in the new edition of C+, then yes 50-80% of MHR for most of the training. Several of the heart rate monitor training books also suggest this as a base builder.
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Postby timestar » Mon Dec 18, 2006 15:21 pm

The fact that you can ride long distances, and have been doing for some time, without water does not make it a good thing to do. Read any half decent text on exercise and flid intake, and they will tell you need that fluid and you need it before you feel thirsty. Drinking more fluid does not make you sweat more. Your body needs fluid to function effectively.
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Postby jaijaicp » Mon Dec 18, 2006 17:29 pm

I have noticed almost 100% of the guys on my club rides drink very very little, some dont even have a bottle on the bike!I try and drink at least 400ml per hour.Some fella even told me not to bother AT ALL with carb based drinks through the winter.There are some seasoned cyclists out there who do know what they are on about, just take all advice with a pinch of salt!

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Postby Monty Dogcp » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:44 pm

The ride without fluid is a 'hard man's' training technique - guys like John Woodburn still come out on rides without a bottle, but he does visit the occasional cafe! I have found that using a creatine supplement helps with recovery and hydration and so don't tend to drink as much on a ride as I used too - I also don't get cramp as much. If you're planning on doing lots of base miles and back-to-back training days, eating and drinking on the rides is essential, otherwise you'll suffer. As someone who clocked up to 3000km a month last winter, I'd have died in a ditch in a week without drinks and food on rides.

With regards to climbing styles, it depends on you as a rider and your bike set-up. Latest research suggests that getting out the saddle is just as efficient as seated, provided you've got the core body / muscle strength to sustain the position. Learning to ride efficiently both seated or standing helps with the recovery of muscle groups - particularly useful for long days in the mountains. Riding out the saddle with hands on the drops is probably the most powerful climbing position, but requires good core body strength and best saved for short blasts / accelerations ~5 mins rather than prolonged efforts
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Postby cycling_rower » Sat Jan 06, 2007 21:25 pm

In regards to the no-drinking philosophy, you can argue to the death about whether it damages you permanently but its the fact that your body will perform better, for longer, when it is properly fueled and hydrated.
I do large amount of endurance training and races (up to 5 hours in a boat at once), and to not take on water would basically mean I would be under performing, and so not getting as much out of my training.
I have in the past used the no-drinking philosophy at circuit training and it turned the session into a hard core survival test, when really I should have been concentrating on the job in hand. If you are training for a sport where drinking is not possible at all in a race, or in the army, then this philosophy is often followed for obvious reasons, the reasons are different, but probably to the detriment of the individuals.
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Postby jonathan r » Wed Apr 04, 2007 21:39 pm

Regarding cadence and climbing, GONZO said in his post on climbing

"4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual."

I was under impression that a higher cadence on the flat is better because its more energy efficient, I would have thought the principle would be the same on a hill.
If you lower your cadence, are you not going to use more energy whist applying more pressure on the pedals?

Can someone clarify this.
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Postby nmcgann » Wed Apr 04, 2007 22:15 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by jonathan r</i>

Regarding cadence and climbing, GONZO said in his post on climbing

"4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual."

I was under impression that a higher cadence on the flat is better because its more energy efficient, I would have thought the principle would be the same on a hill.
If you lower your cadence, are you not going to use more energy whist applying more pressure on the pedals?

Can someone clarify this.
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A higher cadence actually uses more energy from the CV system at the cost of reducing muscle force required - i.e. it is less energy efficient, but causes less fatigue. Dropping the cadence a touch on hills is a bit more energy-efficient if you are getting near to your limits.

There is also the question of being able to spin the gear at the higher cadence while staying within your power limits - on steep hills you need a very low gear to keep it turning at 90+ rpm without going at the sort of speed that needs lots of power. Look here: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm to play with power/speed/gradient calculations and then use the sheldon brown gear calculator to see what gearing you need at particular cadences to do that speed. It's pretty revealing.

Neil
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Postby Bigtallfatbloke » Fri Jun 08, 2007 19:05 pm

thats good advice, as a beginner I need stuff like this. Being heavier than I should be and unfit means I am seriously struggling on hills. However the hills I died on 2 weeks ago I am now cruising (ish lol!) I still find when I get to the top I sometimes need a short stop to re gain my breath, especially on the convex hills that get steeper as I go along. Standing is something I'm trying to avoid, mainly because it sends my centre of gravity up even higher and I feel unstable.

...something that helps me ...my wife is a runner and she told me about exhaling in 4 short bursts rather than one big one...I tried it and it does help...dunno why though.
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Postby vernonlevy » Tue Jun 12, 2007 20:40 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bigtallfatbloke</i>

thats good advice, as a beginner I need stuff like this. Being heavier than I should be and unfit means I am seriously struggling on hills. However the hills I died on 2 weeks ago I am now cruising (ish lol!) I still find when I get to the top I sometimes need a short stop to re gain my breath, especially on the convex hills that get steeper as I go along. Standing is something I'm trying to avoid, mainly because it sends my centre of gravity up even higher and I feel unstable.

...something that helps me ...my wife is a runner and she told me about exhaling in 4 short bursts rather than one big one...I tried it and it does help...dunno why though.
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I'd not worry too much about the stops for breathers. They become few and far bewteen as you get fitter. I never used to be able to walk the 500 yds from my house to the post office and back without having three or four breathers at my 'peak unfitness'.

A hill climbing technique for me that seemd to work during the internediate phase between stopping for breathers and doing hills in one was to drop the cadence and the gearing so that my heart rate didn't exceed 130 bpm i.e. I could maintain a conversation as I was climbing. Around 150 bpm I'd suffer from the contention between breathing and the ability to speak [:p]
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Postby sherlock65 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 21:44 pm

jonathan r wrote:Regarding cadence and climbing, GONZO said in his post on climbing

"4) Shift into a gear which allows a cadence about 5-10 rpm lower than usual."

I was under impression that a higher cadence on the flat is better because its more energy efficient, I would have thought the principle would be the same on a hill.
If you lower your cadence, are you not going to use more energy whist applying more pressure on the pedals?

Can someone clarify this.


Yes, climbing at high cadence is a "good thing". Only thing is, once you stand you can't maintain the same cadence as you can seated. My spin while seated is several rpm faster than my standing cadence.
Gonzo's point is that as you stand, you should change up at least one gear depending on what cassette you use. This means a lower cadence for the same speed while standing up. Try it - if you stand in the same gear at the same effort you will slow down, almost certainly.

Steve
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Postby Sue Wass » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:49 am

I can see I'm going to have to spend a bit of time having a good read through this thread!

I've been commuting for about 4 years a distance of about 3 miles each way (please don't laugh, I thought I was doing really well :roll: ) as part of my fitness training for the my main sporting hobby (motorcycles both on and off road);

Recently I bought my first road race bike (from Edingburgh cycles) the longest ride on that was 20 miles and I averaged 12.5 MPH.

so I clearly have lots and lots of training to do!
I could say it's problematic fitting it all in, but after having read in C+ about the lady in the team who has 4 young children and fits in lots of training - well out go all the excuses.
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Postby Moomaloid » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:58 pm

i'm back on my bike for the first time in about 6 or 7 years. Started commuting to work over the past cpl of months. About 20 miles a day from one side of london to the other. Never realised how awful the roads are! plus traffic lights are a nightmare.

I'm looking to build on my base fitness before i try a training programme. Would most of you suggest just adding to the mileage as a starter??

Also i'm not really enjoying riding in london. Forever having to stop at lights doesn't allow you to get a good rhythm. Any recommendations on rides in or out of the city?
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Postby bianchi77 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:28 am

Nice climbing tips...

Anyway is there any more links for a climbing tips ?
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Postby boybiker » Thu Jul 31, 2008 14:12 pm

Ohhhh its all confusing,

I always drink lots of water 'cos that seems like the right thing to do, and I always, or nearly always stand up when climbing hills as do most of the people I go out with on club runs, I find I am improving on the climbs so I dunno what to think now. :? :?
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Postby Toshmund » Fri Aug 01, 2008 01:02 am

I used to be in the army. In the mid 80's we would never have water available during PT sessions. Over the course of time though, what with more research - water was made available. There was also the recent court martial infact, after the young lad died from dehydration. Basic rule of thumb, if you feel thirsty/have cramp - you are too dehydrated. Not to mention the prospect of having Gall stones the size of pebbles later in life!

Personally, I prefer to stand on hills. Feel as though I am applying more force, than struggling sat down.
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Postby nolf » Mon Aug 11, 2008 00:26 am

If you get up hills faster out of the saddle go out of the saddle, but I find that tends to use my muscles up, so tend to save out of the saddle efforts for when they count.

If you're objective is to go up 1 hill as fast as possible, no matter what, then whichever gets you up faster is better.
For hard rides, just do whichever is faster.

For long rides I'd say stay in the saddle, but then longer rides I pay more attention to my Heart rate. it's been shown that a rider doing the same power up a climb (so the same speed), 1 out of the saddle and 1 in, he was 10 beats per min higher out of the saddle, for the same power (speed) up the climb.
So when stopping myself from pushing my heart rate up, in the saddle is a bit more controllable.

Personally, on most climbs I stay in the saddle (as I find it too easy to wimp out and slow down out of the saddle), even on chaingangs. But in races sometimes you have to accelerate quickly and put a lot of power out over a short period of time, out of the saddle is easier for this.

Boybiker, the act of doing the hills is probably making you faster up them. Just do whichever method you rather. Theres no right or wrong way to climb, just whichever gets you up it fastest is best!
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Postby Rocket Roy » Sat Sep 06, 2008 09:07 am

If you are a timetrialler then try to climb the hills seated and only get out of the saddle if it's the only way forward.
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Postby cycleNoodle » Wed Sep 24, 2008 14:02 pm

as a really basic rule just ride from november to january at one pace for hours and hours, usually between 12 and 14 mph then start interval sessions in jan/feb, work on some sprinting and other techniques and before you know it your a pro.... easy
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Postby fuzzynavel » Tue Sep 30, 2008 08:12 am

cycleNoodle wrote:as a really basic rule just ride from november to january at one pace for hours and hours, usually between 12 and 14 mph then start interval sessions in jan/feb, work on some sprinting and other techniques and before you know it your a pro.... easy


Is 12-14mph not a little slow? I suppose it depends on the relative fitness of the individual doing it.
Or is your idea to sit within the Heart rate training zone?
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