The official TrainerRoad thread

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dw300
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 16:49 pm

Right .. the weather outside is terrible, another typical British summer's day .. so I decided I wanted to do a tough TR workout, having had a day off the bike yesterday.

I decided to do the 20 minute test again, mainly because I just wanted to see if I could beat my last attempt. I also wanted to test out a new saddle angle and position, and left cleat position.

The position changes seem to have worked. I read the article whojan linked to, and I had a feeling that I was having a problem with my left patella not sliding in it groove properly. Just going by feel, I figured that pointing my left out outwards a bit might stop my knee kicking inwards during the pushing phase of the stroke, and it seems to have done the trick.

So I jumped on the bike and didn't have any pain. I have tilted my seat downwards a bit, so I can rotate my pelvis forward without squashing my bits, which I think gets me in a more powerful position. I was also able to give all I could this time, compared to last time when I hit a max HR of 165, but couldn't put down more power.

Here's the workout .. http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/73109

I've gone from an FTP of 172, up to 212, which gets me to a power to weight ratio of 3W/kg .. i can finally say I'm a proper cyclist now. Could've done with a fan!
All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
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JGSI
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby JGSI » Wed Aug 15, 2012 17:36 pm

You definitely had a smoother ride on that test .better than mine. well done.. has the software adjusted your ftp and HR?

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dw300
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 18:33 pm

JGSI wrote:You definitely had a smoother ride on that test .better than mine. well done.. has the software adjusted your ftp and HR?


I just found a nice gear for the 20 minute test based on the 5 minute interval beforehand, and when the 20 minute started I didn't even look at the numbers, it wasn't till 5 mins in when it beeped that I looked down and had been doing 220-230 for the first 5 mins. I made a couple of cadence drops from 110 to 100 for a little rest, and a couple of high powered efforts towards the end to see if I could hold them to raise the average a bit.

At the end the software suggests your new FTP and LTHR, you can click to set to those, or dismiss and change manually in your own time. I just changed mine there and then.

It's weird, even though it's the same bike and i've ridden the trainer plenty, I feel like I'm still getting used to doing bigger efforts indoors using TR. I always used it for easier stuff, and did hard work on the road. I was uncomfortable with the intense heat and sweating that I don't get outdoors.

The extra 40W should make a difference to the rest of the training anyway .. glad I experimented a bit, and I'd recommend running the tests 2-3 times in the first 10-12 rides as you adjust to make sure your working off of the best effort you can give during the test. I know I'd been holding bad a bit so I didn't hurt myself.
All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Aug 15, 2012 18:54 pm

dw300 wrote:
JGSI wrote:You definitely had a smoother ride on that test .better than mine. well done.. has the software adjusted your ftp and HR?


I just found a nice gear for the 20 minute test based on the 5 minute interval beforehand, and when the 20 minute started I didn't even look at the numbers, it wasn't till 5 mins in when it beeped that I looked down and had been doing 220-230 for the first 5 mins. I made a couple of cadence drops from 110 to 100 for a little rest, and a couple of high powered efforts towards the end to see if I could hold them to raise the average a bit.

At the end the software suggests your new FTP and LTHR, you can click to set to those, or dismiss and change manually in your own time. I just changed mine there and then.

It's weird, even though it's the same bike and i've ridden the trainer plenty, I feel like I'm still getting used to doing bigger efforts indoors using TR. I always used it for easier stuff, and did hard work on the road. I was uncomfortable with the intense heat and sweating that I don't get outdoors.

The extra 40W should make a difference to the rest of the training anyway .. glad I experimented a bit, and I'd recommend running the tests 2-3 times in the first 10-12 rides as you adjust to make sure your working off of the best effort you can give during the test. I know I'd been holding bad a bit so I didn't hurt myself.

It's possible your position was holding you back a bit, mine certainly was on the road at least. I'm hoping it shows on TR too.

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 19:26 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
dw300 wrote:
JGSI wrote:You definitely had a smoother ride on that test .better than mine. well done.. has the software adjusted your ftp and HR?


I just found a nice gear for the 20 minute test based on the 5 minute interval beforehand, and when the 20 minute started I didn't even look at the numbers, it wasn't till 5 mins in when it beeped that I looked down and had been doing 220-230 for the first 5 mins. I made a couple of cadence drops from 110 to 100 for a little rest, and a couple of high powered efforts towards the end to see if I could hold them to raise the average a bit.

At the end the software suggests your new FTP and LTHR, you can click to set to those, or dismiss and change manually in your own time. I just changed mine there and then.

It's weird, even though it's the same bike and i've ridden the trainer plenty, I feel like I'm still getting used to doing bigger efforts indoors using TR. I always used it for easier stuff, and did hard work on the road. I was uncomfortable with the intense heat and sweating that I don't get outdoors.

The extra 40W should make a difference to the rest of the training anyway .. glad I experimented a bit, and I'd recommend running the tests 2-3 times in the first 10-12 rides as you adjust to make sure your working off of the best effort you can give during the test. I know I'd been holding bad a bit so I didn't hurt myself.

It's possible your position was holding you back a bit, mine certainly was on the road at least. I'm hoping it shows on TR too.


You're probably right. I was never fully relaxed and able to focus on power before.

The last test I did started at midnight, and I'd been out for an hour earlier that evening. So a lot of different factors. But until today I didn't really appreciate how important having your bike position right is. Bad position seems to be one thing riding on a trainer seems to highlight, that riding on the road doesn't so much, when you can hold back or move to counteract it.
All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
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JGSI
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby JGSI » Wed Aug 15, 2012 19:49 pm

Just finished the 'Pain cave' . It's a Spinnerval video one, but I just dropped Eurosport 2011 LBL mp4 into the window and got on with it.
I blew completely on one of the bricks, but that as a result of yesterdays efforts more than likely.

I was going to suggest further if you change bike setup, make sure it dont compromise your actual road riding.

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby GiantMike » Wed Aug 15, 2012 20:50 pm

[quote="dw300" ]Here's the workout .. http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/73109

I've gone from an FTP of 172, up to 212, which gets me to a power to weight ratio of 3W/kg .. i can finally say I'm a proper cyclist now. Could've done with a fan![/quote]

I'd take those figures with a pinch of salt.

172W to 212W is an FTP improvement of 23% which sounds high.

And an absolute FTP of 212W sounds low. My wife, who rides about once a week has an FTP of 210W. Quite a few of the TR workouts seem to have very low FTPs.
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dw300
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 21:16 pm

GiantMike wrote:I'd take those figures with a pinch of salt.

172W to 212W is an FTP improvement of 23% which sounds high.

And an absolute FTP of 212W sounds low. My wife, who rides about once a week has an FTP of 210W. Quite a few of the TR workouts seem to have very low FTPs.


Did you read my post, and the rest of the thread? I said didn't give all I could the first time around, and that there were lots of other factors contributing.

212W is low. But I'm a novice cyclist of about a year with no training over the winter. I'm 150lbs, maybe your wife is bigger and more powerful than me, or has years of cycling under her belt.

You weren't sitting watching both my efforts, so I'll take your advice with a pinch of salt, since I know you don't know all the details. I can tell you're simply cynical because as many people seem to be when quoting virtual power instead of actual power .. but we've all acknowledged that the figures won't be pin-point accurate, we are simply using it to check for improvement.
All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby GiantMike » Wed Aug 15, 2012 21:47 pm

Whoops, didn't mean to upset you.
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 22:14 pm

GiantMike wrote:Whoops, didn't mean to upset you.


Lol .. don't worry, I didn't cry. Maybe I was a bit precious over my hard work .. it was the lactate talking!
All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
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NatePearson
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby NatePearson » Wed Aug 15, 2012 23:34 pm

JGSI wrote:ah , yes the open road.. I'll remind meself what it is like on Sunday.. my penultimate race of the season :(

Question for Nate:

My power figures for tempo/sweetspot and threshold seem about right, but the HR numbers seem a bit off.
For instance, it is giving my threshold at 158 where I am sustaining around 170.
Will this self correct when I next do a FTP 'test' or can I calibrate?
The initial FTP test was done without a HR strap to clarify.
I don't really want to repeat another test protocol so soon if I don't have to.
When I race , I don't have power, the only 'number' I have on the bike is HR and if I do 1 and go with a break or do a long one on the last lap ( I have no sprint) , it would be extremely useful to ride to the correct pace with the knowledge gained from the TR figures.


Yes you can. I would take the HR data that you gain indoors at a certain power output then verify it outdoors and make sure it "feels right". Sometimes indoor/outdoor heart rate data can vary.

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby whojanicanackerov » Thu Aug 16, 2012 09:55 am

DW nice ride and lot better result!!!.I`m glad the bike setup issues are sorted ish?
I think you need a big fan for sure.Using a fan will keep you cooler helping you produce the goods!!

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby GiantMike » Thu Aug 16, 2012 14:17 pm

JGSI wrote:When I race , I don't have power, the only 'number' I have on the bike is HR and if I do 1 and go with a break or do a long one on the last lap ( I have no sprint) , it would be extremely useful to ride to the correct pace with the knowledge gained from the TR figures.


Without wanting to tread on anybody's toes, the correct pace to ride with a break is 'as hard as you have to to make it stick or until you fall off the back'. The correct pace to ride a long one is 'as hard as you can for the distance left to run'. I'd suggest both are best done on feel rather than HR.

The 30-45 sec delay in HR compared to effort means that judging effort by HR in a high-power scenario is impossible. On a TT it's possible, but even then the first mile or so is done on feel rather than HR while the body catches up with the effort.

When I race I have power and HR data available. I do it all on feel and use the data to work out what happened after the race and where I need to train.

Feel free to ignore anything I've written.
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby amaferanga » Thu Aug 16, 2012 14:23 pm

GiantMike wrote:When I race I have power and HR data available. I do it all on feel and use the data to work out what happened after the race and where I need to train.


This.

I do have average power and NP displayed in races though and I check occasionally - usually just to confirm that my effort matches the number. It always does. I've never tried to use power to pace myself in a race. Using HR would be near nonsensical.
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby NatePearson » Thu Aug 16, 2012 22:06 pm

amaferanga wrote:
GiantMike wrote:When I race I have power and HR data available. I do it all on feel and use the data to work out what happened after the race and where I need to train.


This.

I do have average power and NP displayed in races though and I check occasionally - usually just to confirm that my effort matches the number. It always does. I've never tried to use power to pace myself in a race. Using HR would be near nonsensical.


Yah, power (and even more so heart rate) during a road race or crit is pretty useless. Power is vary helpful for post race analysis.

Power during races is only really well suited for TTs, and even more so during triathlons since you have to ride a bit under your max in order to run well.

It's great for training though! :)

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 01:43 am

I'm thinking of doing this today (Fri) .. Clouds Rest

Have any of you guys tried it? How did it go?

I'm looking to develop a bit more power in my VO2 zone for better Strava Sniping!
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby JGSI » Fri Aug 17, 2012 05:34 am

NatePearson wrote:
amaferanga wrote:
GiantMike wrote:When I race I have power and HR data available. I do it all on feel and use the data to work out what happened after the race and where I need to train.


This.

I do have average power and NP displayed in races though and I check occasionally - usually just to confirm that my effort matches the number. It always does. I've never tried to use power to pace myself in a race. Using HR would be near nonsensical.


Yah, power (and even more so heart rate) during a road race or crit is pretty useless. Power is vary helpful for post race analysis.

Power during races is only really well suited for TTs, and even more so during triathlons since you have to ride a bit under your max in order to run well.

It's great for training though! :)


Well lads, you may just have to 'indulge' me this time.
i do have a game plan on Sunday.
I have raced on feel the last 20 races this season - got no where.
I don't expect any help whatsoever when I try to make a break.
i expect to be pulled back by dumbasses bringing the bunch back and not bridging.
of course, if a good break goes and I have to bridge myself, I aint going to pay any attention to any numbers and just work.
of course, I may just sit in for 55 miles ...
that about covers all the bases , I think :wink:

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby NatePearson » Fri Aug 17, 2012 15:16 pm

dw300 wrote:I'm thinking of doing this today (Fri) .. Clouds Rest

Have any of you guys tried it? How did it go?

I'm looking to develop a bit more power in my VO2 zone for better Strava Sniping!


I've done that one. It was good for me, I didn't have to lower the intensity at all. I'm better at short intervals than longer intervals though.

Check out the accompanying video that tells you what to look for and how to do this workout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqjMZo3_2dU

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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby JGSI » Fri Aug 17, 2012 17:08 pm


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dw300
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Re: The official TrainerRoad thread

Postby dw300 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 17:19 pm

NatePearson wrote:
dw300 wrote:I'm thinking of doing this today (Fri) .. Clouds Rest

Have any of you guys tried it? How did it go?

I'm looking to develop a bit more power in my VO2 zone for better Strava Sniping!


I've done that one. It was good for me, I didn't have to lower the intensity at all. I'm better at short intervals than longer intervals though.

Check out the accompanying video that tells you what to look for and how to do this workout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqjMZo3_2dU


Just finished it. I had watched the video last night, so I knew the principle of least work to get you breathing your hardest. I didn't adjust the intensity though, it felt about right, I'm not sure I could have done much more, but less might not have had me working as hard. The Billats were too short to really know where my HR would have levelled out at, at that level, they peaked at about 170-175 at the Billats at the end of each set.

http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/73531

But felt good (tough), and set some power records, and legs were starting to get pretty fatigued at the end of the last set.
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