I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Discuss the eternal "Which fork/bike/tyres should I buy?" questions.
paulneenan76
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I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby paulneenan76 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 23:33 pm

Hello, first time poster who's looking for advice so please go easy. And bare with me :7)
I got back in to mtb a couple of years back after a long (alcohol/party fuelled) absence :D. With a new house, fiancé and baby on the way, I vowed I would only do it on a budget! Having picked up a barely used well specd carrera kraken at an incredibly cheap price off fleabay, I cracked on building up some fitness, hitting the chiltern bridleways and Woburn area trails. I also joined a local group (awesome friends now) and do a weekly night ride (never did this in the old days) as well as trips to Cannock and FoD etc. As parts have worn, I've replaced with good spec but always on a budget/ 2nd hand basis. Wether I could afford it or not, I just can't validate a blow out on a top end HT or full Suss but am thinking its time for a new frame, but making do with building it using some of my less decent parts (wheelset and fork) and porting everything else over. At 20" the kraken is too big really so am looking to go for an 18" on one 456 (may push budget to carbon). The question/s is/are:

I currently run newish SRAM X7 9 spd gear set, truvativ cranks with DMR v8's, brand new Deore brakes with 180 rotors one one saddle stem and a lapierre 80mm stem and bars - I'm pretty happy with all of this. Is this all portable to an on one 456 steel/carbon? I need to run a 3x9 set but will chain suck be an issue? Will my well maintained suntour xcr fit and run ok until I can't get a plusher rockshox set up? My hubs are on their way out but was advised upgrading wheelset is a better option - so what budget closed cup 6 bolts are good value for money (need closed cup for gritty woburn trails). Anything else I need to consider?

Sorry if that's a bit much info. These things always sounded too simple to be true :7)

Thanks for any help

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supersonic
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby supersonic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 00:39 am

Thing is an 18 inch OnOne 456 could be longer than the 20" Kraken, therefore even bigger! The listed measurement is one from many - look at the other figures and compare. You can adjust the seatpost, you can't adjust the top tube length.

Things that might not fit - seat post, seat clamp, headset, fork steerer (length wise), cables and hoses (length). Bottom bracket and chainset should be fine, as will be the rear mech.

When changing frame you need to compare all measurements and standards first for fit and compatibility.

RockmonkeySC
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby RockmonkeySC » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:27 am

Everything except the seatpost & front mech will fit. You will also need a new headset The 456 has a very short head tube so steerer length should be fine. The 456 frame is designed to be used with a stem no longer than 60mm which is why it has a longer top tube.
The 18" 456 is slightly smaller than a 20" Kraken (I borrowed a Kraken for a weekend a while back and own a 18" 456SS).
The steel On-One frame will be heavier but it is indestructible and a bit less harsh than the Carrera. Chain suck does seem to be a bit of an issue with the 456 frames, not sure why.

paulneenan76
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby paulneenan76 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:34 am

Hi and thanks Supersonic.

I'll have to check top tube length of the Kraken against the 456. On One's website recommends 18" for my height but I would like a shorter top tube than my current frame - I guess the 16" might come in to play?
Thanks for your advice on other considerations. The headset is an FSA job recently fitted, not sure of compatibility with 456 so will check.
The seatpost and clamp is 27.2 (On One Twelfty with big nose seat) - the standard 456 is 27.2 but I believe the carbon is oversize so will need the bigger clamp and Twelfty post if I'm lucky enough to go carbon.
Steerer length is a concern as I would need to run the Suntour XCM until I could change the fork. I do know it's never been cut down.
My new Deore brakes (Bloody great) were left with un-trimmed hoses for ease of fitment etc., and as they are quite lengthy out the box, is it likely I would need to get longer hoses?
Cables I hadnt thought about but guess this would be a cheap-ish easy fix?

Now wheelset is where I'm really struggling! I understand that if I went for new, a set of entry level shimano's are fine, however, I was told the cup n cone will take more maintenance/wont last long due to the conditions round here (woburn etc), plus I need either 6 bolt or get new rotors? Heard Superstar could be good but happy with 2nd hand if I know what to be looking out for.

My thanks for any help, guidance, advice or words of wisdom.

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.blitz
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby .blitz » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:05 am

Would recommend you make absolutely sure your fork steerer is long enough it's an expensive mistake if it isn't

Also factor in the little bits - seat clamp (£20), headset (£40), cables (£2-3/m), brake shortening & bleed (£30) it all adds up

And any special tools you might need for crank/bb removal and/or lbs costs if things don't go as planned.

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passout
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby passout » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:07 am

I'm 5'8'' - 5'9'' with a 31''inside leg and would definitely go for the 16'' 456 with a 70mm stem, if that helps.
'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.

paulneenan76
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby paulneenan76 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 14:42 pm

Hello everyone.
Thanks to all who posted so far, it really is very helpful to someone such as me who has limited knowledge of a frame swap/build, to get such good advice.
I spoke with a very helpful chap at On One, and the long and short of it is; the 18" 456 is pretty much spot on for my dimensions and how I like to ride/what I ride, and as long as I stick to a steel 456, pretty much a straight swap (most of my finishing kit came from On One) and therefore pretty cost effective - the wallet is happy. However, if I want the carbon (and it is my preference but not the wallets), then I need to factor in for a tapered headset, bigger front mech and a new wider Twelfty seat post and clamp! Of course I'm sure that I can do this on a budget, and I have a friend who runs his own repair/training and race support business, who may offer me some support for the build.

My question now becomes, not whether or not I go carbon or steel, (because both are tremendous value and are both worth it in my eyes), BUT what is a good robust 6-bolt wheelset on sealed hubs at a similar price point to shimano's entry level wheelset? should I start a new post?

Thanks again

Paul

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supersonic
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby supersonic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:07 pm

The steel frame is bloody heavy though, will add 1.5lbs to the weight of your bike.

paulneenan76
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby paulneenan76 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:35 pm

Hello Supersonic - Yeah 1.5lb I'm sure will be noticeable but I'm hardly a XC whippet. Mind you, I could knock 2lb off my body frame :7) to compensate. In all seriousness, I'm thinking whether or not I go Carbon or Steel, I'm really going to enjoy a 456. My head and heart are saying I'll regret not going carbon if I went steel (and I would be stuck with that feeling for some time).

Any thoughts on wheelsets?

FYI 3 Me and 4 of my friends went for cree xml t6 with unltrafires etc., thanks to your posts - Got them from a uk based/uk tested seller for just over £30 :D - blown away! And the rest of our group with Exposures were a touch impressed lol.

Thanks

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supersonic
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby supersonic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 15:38 pm

If you can afford it, go for the carbon as it is a great frame, tough and light. But as you say, you will need to buy some new parts. You'll need a new headset either way, but they tapered ones do cost more.

All depends on your budget. What have you got for the wheels, or total? I'd be looking at a new fork too to do the frame justice!

Yep, the lights are amazing!

RockmonkeySC
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby RockmonkeySC » Wed Sep 19, 2012 16:35 pm

I would go with the steel frame. The carbon frame just doesn't feel as nice, it has enough flex but doesn't have the spring that the steel frame has.
Steel is heavy, mine is 28lb with a reasonably tough all mountain build. The finish on the carbon frames is even worse than on the steel frame.

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supersonic
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby supersonic » Wed Sep 19, 2012 16:56 pm

It is heavy (ish) for a frame, your bike would weigh 26lbs if it was carbon! Something to be aware of if you are coming from a Kraken, which is sub 4lbs.

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passout
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby passout » Wed Sep 19, 2012 17:22 pm

I like steel frames but I'd probably go carbon in this case - not much in it price wise really.
'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.

paulneenan76
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby paulneenan76 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 01:32 am

If I can validate the stretch the I'm having of price - carbon all day long. If not then steel is in.

Only a few weeks back my friend offered me the mt65' s from trade account but I dithered and missed out. This would have been £150 so I'm loathed to spend more!

ali4390
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby ali4390 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 07:12 am

The Superstar Stan's deal is £200 but from what I gather is a bargain at that price?

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The Rookie
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby The Rookie » Thu Sep 20, 2012 09:01 am

You can save a bit be shimming your current seatpost or by getting 'OK' used parts in the short term.

Love to know how it goes as I would like to reframe my Kraken with a 456 Carbon whippet frame -when finances permit!

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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby jairaj » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:04 pm

[quote=passout]I'm 5'8'' - 5'9'' with a 31''inside leg and would definitely go for the 16'' 456 with a 70mm stem, if that helps.[/quote]

Hmm depends on personal preference. I'm the same size as you and have a 18" with a 50mm stem and really like it.

[quote=RockmonkeySC] would go with the steel frame. The carbon frame just doesn't feel as nice, it has enough flex but doesn't have the spring that the steel frame has.
Steel is heavy, mine is 28lb with a reasonably tough all mountain build. The finish on the carbon frames is even worse than on the steel frame.[/quote]

I find they damp vibrations in different ways. My carbon 456 is very good at reducing tail buzz where as my friends steel 456 flexs a bit more on small bumps but doesn't filter out the buzz. The steel 456 is also no where near as nice to ride as a stereotypical steel frame. I used to ride a Reynolds 631 framed bike and have tried a 853 framed bike too, both felt much better at dampening bumps compared to the steel 456.

Its still a good frame for the money but I think the carbon version is more than worth the extra if you can stretch.

paulneenan76
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby paulneenan76 » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:40 pm

Hello All

Ali4390 - those superstar wheels do seem good value but its more than I want to stretch to really. £150 is the absolute max but the cheaper the better for me. I completely understand this is a very small budget but I'm trying to stick to the mission I set when I got back in to the sport - Sales, bargains, offers, net trawling, ebay, 2nd hand and used. It's worked so far and actually a fair bit of my kraken is new this year.

If I could not stretch to the price of a Carbon 456 I'd get the steel frame all day long! But I want the Carbon, and for someone on a budget mission like me, it's an aspiration thing.

I need wheels ASAP :) , then on a budget I'll start collecting bits which I have to replace because they wont swap over to the new frame (bigger front mech etc), and then it's frame time. I know I'll need forks, but these will have to be at a later date or christmas :wink: .

To be honest my Kraken has never let me down, I sorted the bars and stem to aid my descending, got better tyres, got awesome brakes (new Deores) and full X7 gearing (shifters and front already were X7?). I ride with guys with proper top end rigs (there no bike snobs) but it's never embarrassed me, nor am I embarrassed by it. And I bought it for £130, spent less than £200 as things wore out, and maybe £120 on kit to wear - it owes me nowt.

Any more advice on wheelsets anyone?

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The Rookie
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby The Rookie » Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:56 pm

Wheelsest -classifieds? Or scour the main 'suspects' for end of line offres (on-one, Merlin, CRC).

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felix.london
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Re: I would love a new frame but it'll be a work in progress

Postby felix.london » Thu Sep 20, 2012 13:08 pm

Superstar XCX or AMX set for £130

or this lightweight set at £150 ?;
http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=40&products_id=227
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