When to down a gel?

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philthy3
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby philthy3 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 14:53 pm

Herbsman wrote:
philthy3 wrote:Gels are easier to carry than wrapped up food

Based on what factual information?
philthy3 wrote:You may exert a lot of energy on your recreational rides and benefit from a quick energy boost.

Based on what factual information?
philthy3 wrote:Gels were originally designed for racing but are nowadays aimed at all levels of sport

What a ridiculous statement. A company aims a product at a certain target market to make themselves more profit, not to help people out.


Firstly, i have three pockets on my jersey in which i carry everything i need on a long ride. Sandwiches, wraps, cake etc take up more room than a couple of gels.

Secondly, if i'm riding for four hours or more I will expend energy. I've bonked enough times to know my energy will deplete during a lengthy ride and will need a boost.

Thirdly, so the real reason is you prefer not to put money into the hands of the manufacturers and your belief they're just ripping everyone off.
We're all buffoons; some slightly less than others.

philthy3
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby philthy3 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 14:57 pm

Herbsman wrote:Not sure why you feel the need to argue with an opinion that differs from your own especially when you yourself acknowledged the fact that
We'll all have different opinions
. You acknowledge that fact yet as soon as you see an opinion that you don't like, you start an argument :?


That isn't what was said. You said you shouldn't use gels during training rides or sportives; I merely asked you to quantify why. Finally, you have based on your misgivings of putting money into the hands of the manufacturers and that's fair enough. I just wanted your reasoning. I don't agree with it, but it's reason enough for you.
We're all buffoons; some slightly less than others.

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 14:58 pm

philthy3 wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
philthy3 wrote:Gels are easier to carry than wrapped up food

Based on what factual information?
philthy3 wrote:You may exert a lot of energy on your recreational rides and benefit from a quick energy boost.

Based on what factual information?
philthy3 wrote:Gels were originally designed for racing but are nowadays aimed at all levels of sport

What a ridiculous statement. A company aims a product at a certain target market to make themselves more profit, not to help people out.


Firstly, i have three pockets on my jersey in which i carry everything i need on a long ride. Sandwiches, wraps, cake etc take up more room than a couple of gels.

Secondly, if i'm riding for four hours or more I will expend energy. I've bonked enough times to know my energy will deplete during a lengthy ride and will need a boost.

Thirdly, so the real reason is you prefer not to put money into the hands of the manufacturers and your belief they're just ripping everyone off.



People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 14:59 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

Source?

philthy3
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby philthy3 » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:14 pm

Hmm, and I haven't bonked since I began carrying gels. Spooky.
We're all buffoons; some slightly less than others.

Rulebritania
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Rulebritania » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:20 pm

Well, Well, Well, I am merely thinking that as a beginner and endeavouring to put in the miles that an energy drink will provide me the umph to put in more miles.
Don't call me sir I work for a living

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:21 pm

Rulebritania wrote:Well, Well, Well, I am merely thinking that as a beginner and endeavouring to put in the miles that an energy drink will provide me the umph to put in more miles.

So will your diet

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:29 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

Source?


What you eat prior to the event is most important. Remember, scientific tests are based on subjects having fasted. So any scientific papers you may wish to quote, which probably have very few subjects, were based on subjects who had not eaten prior to the test, which were probably funded by a manufacturer of said gel or energy drink or someone who became employed by same, is far from independent, and was probably not a double blind test anyway.

In my opinion if you train using regular inputs of carbohydrate in the form of sugar or sucrose you train your systen to become dependent on a regular input of the said gels & energy drinks.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:30 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

Source?


What you eat prior to the event is most important. Remember, scientific tests are based on subjects having fasted. So any scientific papers you may wish to quote, which probably have very few subjects, were based on subjects who had not eaten prior to the test, which were probably funded by a manufacturer of said gel or energy drink or someone who became employed by same, is far from independent, and was probably not a double blind test anyway.

In my opinion if you train using regular inputs of carbohydrate in the form of sugar or sucrose you train your systen to become dependent on a regular input of the said gels & energy drinks.


So you have nothing at all to backup your claim(Which I have bolded). I thought not

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:36 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

Source?


What you eat prior to the event is most important. Remember, scientific tests are based on subjects having fasted. So any scientific papers you may wish to quote, which probably have very few subjects, were based on subjects who had not eaten prior to the test, which were probably funded by a manufacturer of said gel or energy drink or someone who became employed by same, is far from independent, and was probably not a double blind test anyway.

In my opinion if you train using regular inputs of carbohydrate in the form of sugar or sucrose you train your systen to become dependent on a regular input of the said gels & energy drinks.


So you have nothing at all to backup your claim. I thought not



You back up yours. I have my opinion you are welcome to yours. At least my opinion is mine rather than something I believe because I have been brainwashed.

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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:40 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:You back up yours. I have my opinion you are welcome to yours. At least my opinion is mine rather than something I believe because I have been brainwashed.

I didn't make any claims. Oh it's an opinion now? Funny, because at the time you stated it as fact then stumbled and attempted to backpedal when you couldn't back it up. I've requoted it again for you just to help you be sure what you said.
Trev The Rev wrote:People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.


So please. Provide the thread with actual evidence, that makes your quote,and assertion of fact in the above quote. True..

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 15:48 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:You back up yours. I have my opinion you are welcome to yours. At least my opinion is mine rather than something I believe because I have been brainwashed.

I didn't make any claims. Oh it's an opinion now? Funny, because at the time you stated it as fact then stumbled and attempted to backpedal when you couldn't back it up. I've requoted it again for you just to help you be sure what you said.
Trev The Rev wrote:People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.


So please. Provide the thread with actual evidence, that makes your quote,and assertion of fact in the above quote. True..


I stand by my statement.

If it makes you feel better I will re phrase it.

In my opinion people who eat real food rather than rely on gels or energy drinks tend to bonk less than people who have been brainwashed into believing they need to consume carbohydrate in the form of gels or energy drinks and have trained their body to become dependent on said energy drinks & gels.

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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:01 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:I stand by my statement.

Statement now. It was an opinion 2? posts ago??

If it makes you feel better I will re phrase it.

Try not to make it worse

In my opinion people who eat real food rather than rely on gels or energy drinks tend to bonk less than people who have been brainwashed into believing they need to consume carbohydrate in the form of gels or energy drinks and have trained their body to become dependent on said energy drinks & gels.

Oh you did :roll:

How exactly do you become of the opinion bolded? Bear in mind, your opinion was previously stated as known fact,so there must be some substance of evidence behind it. I would like you to provide this still.

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:07 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I stand by my statement.

Statement now. It was an opinion 2? posts ago??

If it makes you feel better I will re phrase it.

Try not to make it worse

In my opinion people who eat real food rather than rely on gels or energy drinks tend to bonk less than people who have been brainwashed into believing they need to consume carbohydrate in the form of gels or energy drinks and have trained their body to become dependent on said energy drinks & gels.

Oh you did :roll:

How exactly do you become of the opinion bolded?


How did you become by your opinion? Do you have your own opinions? Or do you just parrot dogma taught by your teachers?

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:15 pm

Trev.

This is your statement.
People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

You have not managed to back this up in any form.


This is your "opinion" which amazingly is very similar to the factual statement above.
In my opinion people who eat real food rather than rely on gels or energy drinks tend to bonk less than people who have been brainwashed into believing they need to consume carbohydrate in the form of gels or energy drinks and have trained their body to become dependent on said energy drinks & gels.



Now. With that in mind

Please(referring to your original statement) back it up.

With your latter "opinion" I would like to know how you came by that,given the similarities to your previous statement and lack of scientific evidence.

Trev The Rev wrote:How did you become by your opinion? Do you have your own opinions? Or do you just parrot dogma taught by your teachers?

I didn't post any opinion - I have my own opinions - My teachers are brilliant, they offer actual fact rather than make statements as fact then backtrack calling it an "opinion".

So please stop trying to dig elsewhere and answer the question.

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:27 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:Trev.

This is your statement.
People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.

You have not managed to back this up in any form.


This is your "opinion" which amazingly is very similar to the factual statement above.
In my opinion people who eat real food rather than rely on gels or energy drinks tend to bonk less than people who have been brainwashed into believing they need to consume carbohydrate in the form of gels or energy drinks and have trained their body to become dependent on said energy drinks & gels.



Now. With that in mind

Please(referring to your original statement) back it up.

With your latter "opinion" I would like to know how you came by that,given the similarities to your previous statement and lack of scientific evidence.

Trev The Rev wrote:How did you become by your opinion? Do you have your own opinions? Or do you just parrot dogma taught by your teachers?

I didn't post any opinion - I have my own opinions - My teachers are brilliant, they offer actual fact rather than make statements as fact then backtrack calling it an "opinion".

So please stop trying to dig elsewhere and answer the question.


Read Noakes, also read what Obree has to say and what Carl Heneghan has to say.

Also read http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/4/e001702.

Go talk to your teachers. Ask them about this.

Assessment of evidence behind sports products
A team at the Centre of Evidence Based Medicine at Oxford University assessed the evidence behind 431 performance enhancing claims in adverts for 104 different sports products including sports drinks, protein shakes and trainers.
If the evidence wasn’t clear from the adverts, they contacted the companies for more information. Some, like Puma, did not provide any evidence, while others like GlaxoSmithKline— makers of Lucozade Sport—provided hundreds of studies.
Yet only three (2.7%) of the studies the team was able to assess were judged to be of high quality and at low risk of bias. They say this absence of high quality evidence is “worrying” and call for better research in this area to help inform decisions.
What the research found
As part of the BMJ’s analysis of the evidence underpinning sports performance products, it asked manufacturers to supply details of the studies. Only one manufacturer, GlaxoSmithKline provided a comprehensive bibliography of the trials used to underpin its product claims for Lucozade—a carbohydrate containing sports drink.45 Other manufacturers of leading sports drinks did not and in the absence of systematic reviews we surmise that the methodological issues raised apply to all other sports drinks.
Carl Heneghan, Rafael Perera, David Nunan, Kamal Mahtani, and Peter Gill set out to appraise the evidence and found a series of problems with the studies (see online for full article).9
Small sample sizes limit the applicability of results—Only one of the 106 studies —in 257 marathon runners—exceeded the acceptable target for a small study of 100 participants per group. The next largest had 52 participants and the median sample size was nine. Thus the results cannot be generalised beyond people with the study group characteristics
Poor quality surrogate outcomes undermine the validity—Many studies used time to exhaustion or other outcomes that are not directly relevant to performance in real life events
Poorly designed research offers little to instil confidence in product claims—Most studies (76%) were low in quality because of a lack of allocation concealment and blinding, and often the findings contrasted with each other. The studies often had substantial problems because of use of different protocols, temperatures, work intensities, and outcomes
Data dredging leads to spurious statistical results—Studies often failed to define outcome measures before the study, leaving open the possibility of numerous analyses and increasing the risk of finding a positive result by chance.
Biological outcomes do not necessarily correlate with improved performance—Reductions in use of muscle glycogen, for example, did not correlate with improved athletic performance. Physiological outcomes such as maximal oxygen consumption have also been shown to be poor predictors of performance, even among elite athletes
Inappropriate use of relative measures inflates the outcome and can easily mislead—One study inflated the relative effect of carbohydrate drinks from 3% to 33% by excluding from the analysis the 75 minutes of exercise both groups undertook before an exhaustion test
Studies that lack blinding are likely to be false—Studies that used plain water as the control found positive effects whereas those that used taste matched placebos didn’t
Manipulation of nutrition in the run-in phase significantly affects subsequent outcomes—Many studies seemingly starve participants the night before and on the morning of the research study
Changes in environmental factors lead to wide variation in outcomes—Although dilute carbohydrate drinks may have some benefit in heat, studies found no effect in cold environments. No plausible reason given for benefits
There was no substantial evidence to suggest that liquid is any better than solid carbohydrate intake and there were no studies in children. Given the high sugar content and the propensity to dental erosions children should be discouraged from using sports drinks. Through our analysis of the current sports performance research, we have come to one conclusion: people should develop their own strategies for carbohydrate intake largely by trial and error.

Another problem with the research is transparency. Even though a large proportion of the studies have been conducted by scientists with financial ties to Gatorade (PepsiCo), GSK, and Coca-Cola, the authors’ individual conflicts of interest are either not published or not declared. Conflicts of interest also exist within the key journals in sports medicine—GSSI funded scientists pepper their editorial boards and editorships.
Around half of the studies supplied by GSK appeared in four journals—the Journal of Applied Physiology (20), Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise (24),International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism (11) and the Journal of Sports Science (9). Several of these journals belong to organisations that have long relationships with Gatorade (box).

Most of the scientists identified as being on the GSSI board have prominent roles in journals. Even its global senior director, Asker Jeukendrup, professor of exercise metabolism at Birmingham University, is an editor of the European Journal of Sport Science—the official journal of the European College of Sport Science. His biography states that “he has been a member of the advisory editorial board of theJournal of Sports Sciences, and served on the editorial board of the International Journal of Sports Medicine and Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise. To date, Asker has served as a reviewer for 35 different scientific journals.”53Jeukendrup is one of the main authors of a series of research papers given to theBMJ by GSK to demonstrate the effectiveness of its sports drinks.9
Last edited by Trev The Rev on Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:39 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Read Noakes, also read what Obree has to say. Also read the http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/4/e001702.

Go talk to your teachers.

Bread and jam is the basis of your argument? Someone else can post the epic facepalm pics.

I can see zero of worth in the link that refers in any way to your statement made, and the subsequent similar "opinion".

Nor is there anything of worth in the test you quoted above.


I have a feeling where you will go next.

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:50 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Read Noakes, also read what Obree has to say. Also read the http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/4/e001702.

Go talk to your teachers.

Bread and jam is the basis of your argument? Someone else can post the epic facepalm pics.

I can see zero of worth in the link that refers in any way to your statement made, and the subsequent similar "opinion".

Nor is there anything of worth in the test you quoted above.


I have a feeling where you will go next.


I think you should take that up with

Dr Carl Heneghan
MA DPhil Oxford, BM BCH Oxford, MRCGP

I'm sure he will be interested in your opinion.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Sun Sep 30, 2012 16:57 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:stuff

Are you going to stop stabbing around in the dark with links and documents that are irrelevant to the statement you made?

People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.


The floor is yours. Please take your time to provide actual evidence pertaining to your asssertion.


You really are making this a bit more embarrassing for yourself.

Trev The Rev
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Re: When to down a gel?

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 17:05 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:stuff

Are you going to stop stabbing around in the dark with links and documents that are irrelevant to the statement you made?

People who eat real food don't bonk as much as people who use energy drinks & gels.


The floor is yours. Please take your time to provide actual evidence pertaining to your asssertion.


You really are making this a bit more embarrassing for yourself.


I stand by my statement.

People who depend on gels & sports drinks bonk more often than those who eat real food.
If you do not agree with me, that is your opinion. If you want to prove I am wrong get on with it - prove it. But please come up with some real evidence.


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