Death of a Cruiserweight (page 5)

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bencolem
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby bencolem » Sun Sep 30, 2012 19:48 pm

I had a 2009 Litening HPT - basically a Lynskey Cooper with decals. It was alright - weighed quite a bit more than the 1230g you state and I found it a bit soft and flexy so sold it on!

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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Sun Sep 30, 2012 22:25 pm

bencolem wrote:I had a 2009 Litening HPT - basically a Lynskey Cooper with decals. It was alright - weighed quite a bit more than the 1230g you state and I found it a bit soft and flexy so sold it on!
The frame i have purchased is the Litening HPT Super. Differences include octagon tubing ans is made from 6al/4v ti, also both the HPT super and HPT feature triple butted tubing as far as im aware the Cooper has plain gauge tubing .
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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 09:42 am

Frame arrived this morning, and I'm still none the wiser. It weighs 1295 grams which is in the ballpark for the Hpt super frame yet one of the decals state it is made from 3al/2.5v tubing but the same decal states the top tube as being 535mm but the frame i have has a 546mm top tube.So due to the weight and shape of the frame I'm pretty confident that what i have is a 2009 Super Hpt Litening with 2011 Hpt Litening decals. I'm just waiting to lacquer my EC90 sl forks which are now a rather fetching gloss white. On a more serious note I was quite distraught to find that the drop out on the frame is red, which will clash terribly with my blue colour scheme.
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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:49 am

Here is as fas as I can go until i have lacquered my forks and allowed them 24hrs to dry. The chainset is subject to change.
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cruiserweight
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Mon Oct 01, 2012 13:39 pm

Hi Pastey, I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these frames but I'd like to be sure of the geometry numbers. The numbers given on the German site do not correspond to either the 2011 tapered steerer model or the 2009/2010 models. If I take the numbers at face value, it does suggest that these frames really were built as 2012 models. I think that Cube might have had problems with the pressfit BB and internal headsets, so went back to the old style bikes but with updated geometry. Would you mind telling me the headtube size on your 56cm frame? If your number agrees with the German website then I would have more confidence in the quoted numbers. Many thanks

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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 14:23 pm

cruiserweight wrote:Hi Pastey, I'm about to pull the trigger on one of these frames but I'd like to be sure of the geometry numbers. The numbers given on the German site do not correspond to either the 2011 tapered steerer model or the 2009/2010 models. If I take the numbers at face value, it does suggest that these frames really were built as 2012 models. I think that Cube might have had problems with the pressfit BB and internal headsets, so went back to the old style bikes but with updated geometry. Would you mind telling me the headtube size on your 56cm frame? If your number agrees with the German website then I would have more confidence in the quoted numbers. Many thanks

Hi
I actually purchased the 58cm model which is anyone elses 54cm, It has a 546mm c-c top tube a 143mm head tube and a 54cm c-t seat tube. As i have mentioned the frame i have is the same weight, colour and shape (octagonal tubing) as the 2009 hpt litening super but oddly it has the exact same paint job as the 2011 non super hpt litening so cube must have had a pile of frames and transfers left and decided to make a batch of mongrel frames, this is further backed up by cubes refusal to answer any e-mails i have sent. I'm not complaining though, I have a new frame which had a retail of £2400, a lifetime warranty and the offending wrong decals can easily be removed. sizing is odd but the chart on the sellers site seems 100% accurate. Also i must mention its a stunning bit of kit in the flesh.
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cruiserweight
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Mon Oct 01, 2012 15:32 pm

Thanks very much. Here's a link to a geometry chart for the 2009 Cube Litening Super HPT.
http://www.2009.cuberussia.ru/models-li ... super_hpt/
It's in Russian but still easy to discern (especially if you do a google translate). As you will see, the geometry is different from yours (the headtube in particular). I think these really are new 2012 models that were perhaps dropped soon after going on sale. The original 2009/2010 frames were often criticised for having very tall headtubes, so it looks like that was changed when Cube reverted to threaded bottom brackets and traditional headsets for the 2012 models. I am pretty sure that both 2012 models use the standard grade of ti with the difference being that the Super uses diamond shaped tubing. The diamond shaped tubing cost more to shape hence your model being a "Super". Lynskey use the same diamond shape on their middle to upper range bikes. The diamond shaped downtube on your bike wraps around the headtube thus making more resistant to twisting. It is actually a good thing that your bike is not the higher grade of tubing used on the original Super HPT because it was seamed and far less ductile. The "lower" grade can more easily be worked into more sophisticated shapes, as is the case with your frame. Lynskey prefer to use threaded BBs, standard headsets and standard ti for a reason. You do have a serious bargain because the going rate for a triple butted frame with that level of tube shaping is about £1500.Two years ago it would have been over £2000 but the price of titanium has plummeted since then. Congratulations on your frame. I’m about to push the buy button on a 60cm.

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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Mon Oct 01, 2012 16:13 pm

Having studied the geometry I would say that your 58cm is more like a standard 56cm than a 54cm. I've just bought a 60cm frame which is comparable to a 58cm Cannondale Caad10 or Supersix. The (virtual) toptube on a 60cm HPT frame is 5mm shorter than a Cannondale 58cm but the headtube is 17mm taller (once the external headset is factored in). The seat tube length can more or less be ignored on compact frames. The marginally shorter toptube with a slightly taller headtube points to it being biased towards the sportive market. I'll be using mine as a luxury winter and turbo trainer bike. Let me know how yours rides

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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 16:22 pm

I,m not too sure, as mentioned the decal noting the top tube dimension is incorrect by quite a margin and the weight of the frame is the same as the 2009 super give or take a few grams. the hpt had evolved quite a lot from the 2009 version and it seems very strange that cube would go back to a 4-5 year old design when the industry seems to be moving in an altogether different direction. i did see an article showing a 2012 hpt and it showed a tapered headset, pressfit bb and internal routing along with updated graphics, i will try to find it again. In the meantime i will try lynskey for some info, Ive had one of their frames and they seen nice to deal with so i might get an answer. regardless im chuffed with the frame i have .
Viner Salviati
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Mon Oct 01, 2012 16:59 pm

They probably went back to the old design for the same reason that Lynskey stopped offering the BB30 option on some of their frames like the Cooper. They had too many tolerance and squeaking complaints. Also other upscale ti manufacturers like Litespeed have previously had warranty problems with integrated headsets and moved away. They'll still do it on some top models but it is not quite as reliable or durable as the old standards. Also, the extra cost of tapered headtubes and pressfit BB shells probably made their 2011 frames too expensive for decent sales levels.

I have to stress that these frames are not re-stickered 2009 models. They have different headtube lengths. The German website buyers have confirmed this via their Cube rep. What you have is a 2012 model that is similar in shape to the 2009 model but with standard ti and a shorter headtube. I imagine the 2012 ti models were quickly dropped when the Euro went south. Also Lynskey now have mass distribution in Europe with companies like Chainreactioncycles so they no longer want or need to make frames for people like Planet X or Cube.

I had a look at the geometry of your 58cm frame. It is actually equivalent to a typical 56cm race frame. Your top tube measurement is a virtual 56cm (horizontal equivalent) which makes it equivalent to a standard 56cm all day long. If you needed a 54cm then it could be too big for you.

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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Mon Oct 01, 2012 18:26 pm

size wise it seems fine, i have tried both a cube and van nicholas it 56 cm guise and they felt fine.im 5ft 10 and im short in the legs with a long torso so this frame with its 54cm seat tube should be perfect, with the saddle and post inserted i have a few inches of post on show. the 56cm van nic chinook i tried felt perfect reach wise with a 100mm stem, but the seat tube was too long. the cubes top tube is just a few mm shorter but the seat tube 20mm shorter so its looking good.
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Tue Oct 02, 2012 04:50 am

I'm glad it fits and am looking forward to a ride report. You've effectively gone up from a 52 to a 56 so your old frame must have been quite small for you. The description says that it has a brushed finish. Is that true? It looks like a bead blasted finish in the pictures. Hopefully mine will arrive this week. One more question if you don't mind. What sort of tyre clearance does it have? I'm hoping to fit 25mm three with raceblade guards.

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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby RideOnTime » Tue Oct 02, 2012 05:46 am

pastey_boy wrote:here are 2 images of the hpt super bike. the frame looks the same apart from the graphics. the bike dates back to 2008/9 and retailed for £8000.
Image
Image


crikey :P

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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Tue Oct 02, 2012 07:31 am

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but the 2012 frame is made from cheaper material and has a slightly different geometry to those 2008/2009 frames. The cost of raw titanium has also plummeted since 2009. It's still good value but it's not the bargain implied by the comparison to a different frame from a more expensive era. Those higher spec 2009 Super HPT's were kitted out with Campy Super Record and uber expensive carbon wheels. 105 or Ultegra would be a more appropriate match for this 2012 frame.

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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 08:48 am

cruiserweight wrote:I'm glad it fits and am looking forward to a ride report. You've effectively gone up from a 52 to a 56 so your old frame must have been quite small for you. The description says that it has a brushed finish. Is that true? It looks like a bead blasted finish in the pictures. Hopefully mine will arrive this week. One more question if you don't mind. What sort of tyre clearance does it have? I'm hoping to fit 25mm three with raceblade guards.

It,s a blasted finish, as for clearance I don't know yet as I'm waiting for my forks to dry before the wheels go on.
Viner Salviati
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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 09:15 am

cruiserweight wrote:I don't want to rain on anyone's parade but the 2012 frame is made from cheaper material and has a slightly different geometry to those 2008/2009 frames. The cost of raw titanium has also plummeted since 2009. It's still good value but it's not the bargain implied by the comparison to a different frame from a more expensive era. Those higher spec 2009 Super HPT's were kitted out with Campy Super Record and uber expensive carbon wheels. 105 or Ultegra would be a more appropriate match for this 2012 frame.

The only real query I have regards the weight, the 58 I have weighs 1295grams which compares to the quoted weight of the 53cm Super model of 1250grams. The weight of the 58cm 2009 hpt frame was 1600 grams as verified on Weight Weenies. 300 grams is hell of a saving for what is essentially the same frame.
Viner Salviati
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Cougar 531
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:15 am

Hi Pastey, it wasn't my intention to decry the value of your purchase. I've bought one myself and it is good value. The weight of your frame is in line with an equivalent frame from someone like Enigma. For example a 59cm Esprit weighs 1.26 KG. The Esprit is a double butted frameset made from standard ti. It has a level top tube so (all else being equal) it should weigh fractionally more than a compact frame like yours that is triple butted. Unfortunately a manufacturer can state that a frame is double or triple butted when it only has one double/triple butted tube. A well respected company like Enigma is a useful benchmark because when they say double butted they usually mean all or most of the tubes. The fact that your frame weighs slightly more than a level top tube, double butted frame made from standard ti tells us what is likely to be made from. My best guess is that it has a part triple/part double butted front triangle with a standard gauge rear triangle. That would explain why your "triple butted" compact frame weighs slightly more than a horizontal top tube, double butted frame.

I sincerely doubt that the 2009 standard HPT weighed 1600 grams. Anyone can post anything on weight weenies. Dodgy scale, mischievous post, genuine error? For example, the bottom of the range Enigma Eclipse is made from straight gauge ti and it weighs about 1.4 KG, in a similar size. In the unlikely event that it's true, then Cube was a bit cheeky marketing it as a triple butted frame. I've never heard of a recent quality ti frame that weighs that much. In any event it does not matter. Your frame is a completely different model with a different grade and mix of tubes. Do not get hung up on any similarities in appearance. There are only so many 'looks' that can be achieved when the frame is made from a pallet of shapes from one small company. It's not a 2009 Super HPT (the different headtube length is absolute proof of that) but it is a very good frame in its own right.

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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:56 am

Regardless of what i have said i am very happy with my purchase whatever it is, i have a light ti frame which fits my odd bodyshape, what i cant get over is the mystery surrounding the frame. It is advertised as a super hpt yet comes emblazoned with the same paintjob as the normal hpt, the decal on the frame stating the top tube length is totally wrong and the frame only appears on bike-discounts website and there is no other reference to it anywhere else. Cube themselves wont acknowledge the existence of the frame either. With the wrong decal applied, could it be a factory second perhaps ?
Viner Salviati
Time Speeder S
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pastey_boy
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby pastey_boy » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:47 am

Just given the forks their final coat of lacquer, gonna leave them to dry for a couple of days before i insert the head race and fit to the bike. Just ordered a few finishing touches so if all goes to plan i should have the bike built for fri by which time this rain might ease up so i can get a ride or two in.
Viner Salviati
Time Speeder S
Giant Propel Advanced
Px Ti Custom
Cougar 531
Sab single speed
Argon 18 E-112 TT
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Orange Clockwork 2007 ltd ed
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Re: Pasteys Cube Litening Super HPT Titanium W.I.P.

Postby cruiserweight » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:30 pm

It wouldn't be a factory second. Lynskey have great QC and a substandard frame is unlikely to get out the door. Returns cost them a fortune. It's almost certainly a cancelled model that is being disposed of by one of their biggest domestic customers. The Euro fell against the Dollar and consequently frames bought in from the US became unprofitable. Cube probably only had a small first batch when the decision was made to axe titanium from the road line-up. Another factor is that their in-house 2012 carbon bikes met with critical acclaim and are big sellers. There is therefore no reason for them to commit resources to a loss making, low volume model like the HPT range. Planet X also moved away from Lynskey at about the same time. Most of the decals were probably lying around from the 2011 model year and are the type that can quickly be printed out by an in house machine. It's no surprise that a stillborn model has inconsistent stickering. They wouldn't make much effort on a small batch of frames from a stillborn model range.

What you have is a sophisticated Lynskey made frame at a bargain price. It's worth about £1500 which is almost double what you paid. The 2011 model was very 'modern' but ultimately a marketing own goal. By modernising it they lost the main USP of titanium frames and sent the manufacturing cost skywards. Despite the press fit BB and tapered headtube it was still heavier, less stiff and more costly to make than a Cube carbon frame. These days titanium mostly sells on its durability (the main USP) but the 2011's press fit BB shell and tapered integrated headtube suggest problems down the line. The 2012 model is a more traditional ti "frame for life".

By the way is the frame brushed or bead blasted?


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