FTP using Heart rate

When drugs don't work: training and health tips!
inspectorg69
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FTP using Heart rate

Postby inspectorg69 » Fri Sep 28, 2012 09:50 am

Hi, can anyone help please?
I am trying to get back into riding after being knocked off!.
I don't have Power but use Garmin for HR measurements etc.
I can ride uphill at 88% max HR for about 1 hour but above 92% and I go anaerobic.
I have a 'flat' (250m ascent) 40Km route where my average HR is about 85%.
This hasn't changed at all since before my accident.

If I estimate my FTP and then train, then measure my FTP again- how will I know I'm getting better- my HR won't increase will it?

Thanks

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Fri Sep 28, 2012 22:47 pm

inspectorg69 wrote:Hi, can anyone help please?
I am trying to get back into riding after being knocked off!.
I don't have Power but use Garmin for HR measurements etc.
I can ride uphill at 88% max HR for about 1 hour but above 92% and I go anaerobic.
I have a 'flat' (250m ascent) 40Km route where my average HR is about 85%.
This hasn't changed at all since before my accident.

If I estimate my FTP and then train, then measure my FTP again- how will I know I'm getting better- my HR won't increase will it?

Thanks

To determine or estimate FTP, you have to measure power, and you are correct, your HR is not a measure of fitness. HR is helpful as an intensity guide for relatively steady state sub-maximal aerobic exercise, but that's about it.

If you are not measuring power (either say with a power meter or a reliable indoor training ergometer), then the next best proxy to assess changes in fitness is speed/time up a steep climb:
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ing-19175/

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Sun Sep 30, 2012 08:13 am

I agree with Alex here. Read the Obree Way for more info on an accurate turbo trainer.

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Team4Luke
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Team4Luke » Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:55 pm

simply ride flat out for an hour on your circuit, whenever you complete this in a faster time in future then you will have improved your fitness and power.
Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young

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Team4Luke
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Team4Luke » Mon Oct 01, 2012 21:31 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
inspectorg69 wrote:Hi, can anyone help please?
I am trying to get back into riding after being knocked off!.
I don't have Power but use Garmin for HR measurements etc.
I can ride uphill at 88% max HR for about 1 hour but above 92% and I go anaerobic.
I have a 'flat' (250m ascent) 40Km route where my average HR is about 85%.
This hasn't changed at all since before my accident.

If I estimate my FTP and then train, then measure my FTP again- how will I know I'm getting better- my HR won't increase will it?

Thanks

To determine or estimate FTP, you have to measure power, and you are correct, your HR is not a measure of fitness. HR is helpful as an intensity guide for relatively steady state sub-maximal aerobic exercise, but that's about it.

If you are not measuring power (either say with a power meter or a reliable indoor training ergometer), then the next best proxy to assess changes in fitness is speed/time up a steep climb:
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ing-19175/



of course HR is a measure of fitness. When you exercise, whatever sport, you train all internal body systems, the heart is a muscle and can be trained just the same - it's why people get out of breath - because it's beating too fast.
What actually happens, is you train, you improve all systems including heart as well, of course also by improving others systems you will reduce the stress on your beating heart as well. The end result doesn't tend to change too much, as you end up being able to ride faster for very similar BPM.
Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young

doyler78
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby doyler78 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 22:02 pm

Team4Luke wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
inspectorg69 wrote:Hi, can anyone help please?
I am trying to get back into riding after being knocked off!.
I don't have Power but use Garmin for HR measurements etc.
I can ride uphill at 88% max HR for about 1 hour but above 92% and I go anaerobic.
I have a 'flat' (250m ascent) 40Km route where my average HR is about 85%.
This hasn't changed at all since before my accident.

If I estimate my FTP and then train, then measure my FTP again- how will I know I'm getting better- my HR won't increase will it?

Thanks

To determine or estimate FTP, you have to measure power, and you are correct, your HR is not a measure of fitness. HR is helpful as an intensity guide for relatively steady state sub-maximal aerobic exercise, but that's about it.

If you are not measuring power (either say with a power meter or a reliable indoor training ergometer), then the next best proxy to assess changes in fitness is speed/time up a steep climb:
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ing-19175/



of course HR is a measure of fitness. When you exercise, whatever sport, you train all internal body systems, the heart is a muscle and can be trained just the same - it's why people get out of breath - because it's beating too fast.
What actually happens, is you train, you improve all systems including heart as well, of course also by improving others systems you will reduce the stress on your beating heart as well. The end result doesn't tend to change too much, as you end up being able to ride faster for very similar BPM.


If it's a measure of fitness then how do we measure it bearing in mind your very last sentence?

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Mon Oct 01, 2012 22:31 pm

Team4Luke wrote:of course HR is a measure of fitness.

You are confusing a guide to intensity with measures of fitness or performance. HR does the former but not the latter. Power does both.

e.g. same rider climbs a steep climb with maximal effort in similar conditions. It's not their HR that tells you about their fitness change. It's how fast they can climb.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Mon Oct 01, 2012 22:37 pm

Team4Luke wrote:simply ride flat out for an hour on your circuit, whenever you complete this in a faster time in future then you will have improved your fitness and power.

Speed on circuits is a poor proxy for fitness. I have times on same circuit that vary considerably, yet my power is the same. Using times as a guide would give me a false impression of how my fitness is progressing.

Things like temperature, barometric pressure, clothing, wind (even barely detectable wind) have a large influence over speed on a circuit for any given day.

If not measuring power, then better to use a test that minimises the impact of these variables on speed, and best test for that is a steep hill climb.

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Oct 02, 2012 13:45 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Team4Luke wrote:simply ride flat out for an hour on your circuit, whenever you complete this in a faster time in future then you will have improved your fitness and power.

Speed on circuits is a poor proxy for fitness. I have times on same circuit that vary considerably, yet my power is the same. Using times as a guide would give me a false impression of how my fitness is progressing.

Things like temperature, barometric pressure, clothing, wind (even barely detectable wind) have a large influence over speed on a circuit for any given day.

If not measuring power, then better to use a test that minimises the impact of these variables on speed, and best test for that is a steep hill climb.


Obree recommends an accurate turbo trainer and 20 or 30 minute sessions to measure improvements in fitness and as his number one most important training session. He stresses that the trainer must be very accurate and set up exactly the same for every session.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Tue Oct 02, 2012 13:57 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Team4Luke wrote:simply ride flat out for an hour on your circuit, whenever you complete this in a faster time in future then you will have improved your fitness and power.

Speed on circuits is a poor proxy for fitness. I have times on same circuit that vary considerably, yet my power is the same. Using times as a guide would give me a false impression of how my fitness is progressing.

Things like temperature, barometric pressure, clothing, wind (even barely detectable wind) have a large influence over speed on a circuit for any given day.

If not measuring power, then better to use a test that minimises the impact of these variables on speed, and best test for that is a steep hill climb.


Obree recommends an accurate turbo trainer and 20 or 30 minute sessions to measure improvements in fitness and as his number one most important training session. He stresses that the trainer must be very accurate and set up exactly the same for every session.

You do realise that Alex has coached clients to National and World championship wins?

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Oct 02, 2012 14:07 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Team4Luke wrote:simply ride flat out for an hour on your circuit, whenever you complete this in a faster time in future then you will have improved your fitness and power.

Speed on circuits is a poor proxy for fitness. I have times on same circuit that vary considerably, yet my power is the same. Using times as a guide would give me a false impression of how my fitness is progressing.

Things like temperature, barometric pressure, clothing, wind (even barely detectable wind) have a large influence over speed on a circuit for any given day.

If not measuring power, then better to use a test that minimises the impact of these variables on speed, and best test for that is a steep hill climb.


Obree recommends an accurate turbo trainer and 20 or 30 minute sessions to measure improvements in fitness and as his number one most important training session. He stresses that the trainer must be very accurate and set up exactly the same for every session.

You do realise that Alex has coached clients to National and World championship wins?


Yes, I was merely mentioning what Obree recommends. I am not questioning anything Alex has said. In fact I agree with a great deal of what Alex has to say about training. I am undecided about Obree's preference for a very accurate turbo trainer over a power meter. Obree's book explains in detail about the type of turbo he uses and why.

If I was questioning or not agreeing with Alex I would have said so. See my earlier post on this thread where I agree with Alex.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Tue Oct 02, 2012 14:22 pm

Did Obree not suggest that when you are seeking small gains (0.5%)you need to be sure that differences aren't down to the equipment. ie: using a mag trainer with a locked resistance level.

If you are seeking 0.5% then the turbo is pretty irrelevant, you would be using a calibrated power meter.


This is the book in which he also suggests flaring your nostrils out to aid air intake :roll:

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Oct 02, 2012 14:29 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:Did Obree not suggest that when you are seeking small gains (0.5%)you need to be sure that differences aren't down to the equipment. ie: using a mag trainer with a locked resistance level.

If you are seeking 0.5% then the turbo is pretty irrelevant, you would be using a calibrated power meter.


This is the book in which he also suggests flaring your nostrils out to aid air intake :roll:


He recommends using a magnetic trainer yes, I am not sure why he prefers a very accurate turbo to a power meter. Although I believe in proper deep controlled breathing, particularly when climbing, rather than panic gasping, I do not agree with Obree's breathing method as he explained it in his book. However I do agree with his ideas about diet.

But we wander off thread. We all agree it is necessary to have an accurate way of measuring performance.

doyler78
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby doyler78 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 18:41 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:Did Obree not suggest that when you are seeking small gains (0.5%)you need to be sure that differences aren't down to the equipment. ie: using a mag trainer with a locked resistance level.

If you are seeking 0.5% then the turbo is pretty irrelevant, you would be using a calibrated power meter.


This is the book in which he also suggests flaring your nostrils out to aid air intake :roll:


I wouldn't be so dismissive. If you followed (and by followed I mean put 100% into and were able to do what asked of you) his training advice you would probably be a considerably better rider however whether the level of obsessiveness it demands is something you want to be involved in is quite another thing.

As to the turbo being irrelevant well :? Given that the turbo is the centre of his training regime and he has tried eliminate that which could give rise to error then I'd say his turbo probably is more accurate than your typical power meter. If he does his key session as described then the power meter will add damn all to his knowledge, if anything it would be just another source of doubt for him.

Whether he could do better with a power meter I'm not convinced given how he trains and for someone like him it may actually just be a distraction. Just goes to show that there are many ways to skin a cat :lol:

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Tue Oct 02, 2012 18:51 pm

doyler78 wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:Did Obree not suggest that when you are seeking small gains (0.5%)you need to be sure that differences aren't down to the equipment. ie: using a mag trainer with a locked resistance level.

If you are seeking 0.5% then the turbo is pretty irrelevant, you would be using a calibrated power meter.


This is the book in which he also suggests flaring your nostrils out to aid air intake :roll:


I wouldn't be so dismissive. If you followed (and by followed I mean put 100% into and were able to do what asked of you) his training advice you would probably be a considerably better rider however whether the level of obsessiveness it demands is something you want to be involved in is quite another thing.

As to the turbo being irrelevant well :? Given that the turbo is the centre of his training regime and he has tried eliminate that which could give rise to error then I'd say his turbo probably is more accurate than your typical power meter. If he does his key session as described then the power meter will add damn all to his knowledge, if anything it would be just another source of doubt for him.

Whether he could do better with a power meter I'm not convinced given how he trains and for someone like him it may actually just be a distraction. Just goes to show that there are many ways to skin a cat :lol:

The turbo is irrelevant. Anyone serious enough to look for 0.5% gains by todays standards is going to be training with a power meter and will more than likely have a professional coach.

You cannot be serious? A turbo more accurate than a calibrated power meter?

doyler78
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby doyler78 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:15 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:The turbo is irrelevant. Anyone serious enough to look for 0.5% gains by todays standards is going to be training with a power meter and will more than likely have a professional coach.

You cannot be serious? A turbo more accurate than a calibrated power meter?


No it's not. It is absolutely key to his training and therefore his success. Today's standards have damn all to do with getting the best out of oneself and in any case if his turbo is accurate, or even more accurate, than a calibrated power meter then by training with speed he is training with power.

Have you measured his setup? I guess not. Neither have I but that is some attention to detail he has gone into in order that he gets a turbo that he feels eliminates all that he can from the room for error. I'd be willing to lay a bet that his turbo setup is every bit as accurate any on bike power meter out there.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:24 pm

doyler78 wrote:No it's not. It is absolutely key to his training and therefore his success.


Today's standards have damn all to do with getting the best out of oneself and in any case if his turbo is accurate, or even more accurate, than a calibrated power meter then by training with speed he is training with power.

They do if you want to train like Graeme Obree. Given his unorthodox approach to everything he does, It's a bit of a risk. How does speed on a turbo equate to training with power? They are different no?

Have you measured his setup? I guess not. Neither have I but that is some attention to detail he has gone into in order that he gets a turbo that he feels eliminates all that he can from the room for error. I'd be willing to lay a bet that his turbo setup is every bit as accurate any on bike power meter out there.

He may have wanted to control every single factor but that does not automatically mean that it was accurate,effective yes. Nobody will ever know how much of that effectiveness was down to the equipment or not.

doyler78
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby doyler78 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:33 pm

Well it's called the Obree Way so what's your point?

If a turbo has a consistent resistance, which his turbo setup is designed to ensure, then speed gains are power gains - yes? You don't have to know the watts to know that a gain is a gain :wink:

I never said it did mean it but you absolutely said it didn't. I said my best guess is that it probably is every bit as accurate. Actually it's very easy to test if you really want to know. Just follow his instructions for turbo setup and I'll lend you my very accurate powertap, if you don't have a power meter, which is away getting the hub replaced again (yes the hub, not the torque tube or battery holder) for the second time. At this minute I'd say his approach is a damn site more useful than mine and not impressed than my newly built wheel which was perfectly tensioned according to guy whom I got to check it is going to come back with God knows what sort of tensioning :lol:

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:44 pm

doyler78 wrote:Well it's called the Obree Way so what's your point?

If a turbo has a consistent resistance, which his turbo setup is designed to ensure, then speed gains are power gains - yes? You don't have to know the watts to know that a gain is a gain :wink:

I never said it did mean it but you absolutely said it didn't. I said my best guess is that it probably is every bit as accurate. Actually it's very easy to test if you really want to know. Just follow his instructions for turbo setup and I'll lend you my very accurate powertap, if you don't have a power meter, which is away getting the hub replaced again (yes the hub, not the torque tube or battery holder) for the second time. At this minute I'd say his approach is a damn site more useful than mine and not impressed than my newly built wheel which was perfectly tensioned according to guy whom I got to check it is going to come back with God knows what sort of tensioning :lol:


Well no, Alex covered that above.

I don't have a powermeter/powertap but since they are clearly fragile,it's probably a good idea I don't :lol:

doyler78
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby doyler78 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:49 pm

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
doyler78 wrote:Well it's called the Obree Way so what's your point?

If a turbo has a consistent resistance, which his turbo setup is designed to ensure, then speed gains are power gains - yes? You don't have to know the watts to know that a gain is a gain :wink:

I never said it did mean it but you absolutely said it didn't. I said my best guess is that it probably is every bit as accurate. Actually it's very easy to test if you really want to know. Just follow his instructions for turbo setup and I'll lend you my very accurate powertap, if you don't have a power meter, which is away getting the hub replaced again (yes the hub, not the torque tube or battery holder) for the second time. At this minute I'd say his approach is a damn site more useful than mine and not impressed than my newly built wheel which was perfectly tensioned according to guy whom I got to check it is going to come back with God knows what sort of tensioning :lol:


Well no, Alex covered that above.

I don't have a powermeter/powertap but since they are clearly fragile,it's probably a good idea I don't :lol:


Actually he didn't. He covered speed on an outdoor circuit. Different thing all together :lol:

Well Alex will tell you they aren't fragile too so maybe you should :lol:


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