FTP using Heart rate

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Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Oct 02, 2012 20:10 pm

Mr Obree invented not one position but two aerodynamic riding positions which were so effective they were banned. Yes he is unorthodox, but he achieved all this without the benefit of a wind tunnel or a power meter.

If Mr Obree has doubts about power meters you should at least consider what he has to say.

What are power meters tested on? The manufacturers claim accuracy (if properly calibrated of +/- 1.5%, Pro SRM for lab use +/- 0.5%) All Obree is saying is that the measuring device should be as accurate as possible.

Not only did Obree brake the hour record with bugger all funding, it was his position which was used to brake the hour record after him with considerable funding. Discard his advice at your own peril.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Tue Oct 02, 2012 21:58 pm

If you want a turbo that is more likely to be consistently repeatable (have a predicable power-speed relationship), then you need to remove the tyre-roller interface for a start, there are far too many variables with such trainers*.

Something like a Lemond Revolution is much better in this regard.

As for mag resistance units, many are quite simply horrible to ride on, and can result in your turbo power being considerably less than outdoor power. One might question whether or not this matters, but I think it does.


* This does not make such trainers bad, only that relying on the speed data as a proxy for power is fraught with many sources of error.

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Oct 02, 2012 22:13 pm

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:If you want a turbo that is more likely to be consistently repeatable (have a predicable power-speed relationship), then you need to remove the tyre-roller interface for a start, there are far too many variables with such trainers*.

Something like a Lemond Revolution is much better in this regard.

As for mag resistance units, many are quite simply horrible to ride on, and can result in your turbo power being considerably less than outdoor power. One might question whether or not this matters, but I think it does.


* This does not make such trainers bad, only that relying on the speed data as a proxy for power is fraught with many sources of error.


Alex,

I find it difficult to understand what Obree is getting at here. Obviously he is pointing out that whatever you use - it must be accurate and repeatable. I read the chapter a few times and I still ask why his turbo is better than a power meter?

I think Obree 'likes' the horribleness of the trainer as he says it helps with generating good force throughout the pedal stroke. But I'm not sold on this.

He does not like power meters, but I am unable to understand why.

Trev.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 03, 2012 03:50 am

doyler78 wrote:
T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:
doyler78 wrote:Well it's called the Obree Way so what's your point?

If a turbo has a consistent resistance, which his turbo setup is designed to ensure, then speed gains are power gains - yes? You don't have to know the watts to know that a gain is a gain :wink:

I never said it did mean it but you absolutely said it didn't. I said my best guess is that it probably is every bit as accurate. Actually it's very easy to test if you really want to know. Just follow his instructions for turbo setup and I'll lend you my very accurate powertap, if you don't have a power meter, which is away getting the hub replaced again (yes the hub, not the torque tube or battery holder) for the second time. At this minute I'd say his approach is a damn site more useful than mine and not impressed than my newly built wheel which was perfectly tensioned according to guy whom I got to check it is going to come back with God knows what sort of tensioning :lol:


Well no, Alex covered that above.

I don't have a powermeter/powertap but since they are clearly fragile,it's probably a good idea I don't :lol:


Actually he didn't. He covered speed on an outdoor circuit. Different thing all together :lol:

Well Alex will tell you they aren't fragile too so maybe you should :lol:

The point is the same imo,outdoors or on a turbo speed isn't a good indicator.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 03, 2012 04:26 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:If you want a turbo that is more likely to be consistently repeatable (have a predicable power-speed relationship), then you need to remove the tyre-roller interface for a start, there are far too many variables with such trainers*.

Something like a Lemond Revolution is much better in this regard.

As for mag resistance units, many are quite simply horrible to ride on, and can result in your turbo power being considerably less than outdoor power. One might question whether or not this matters, but I think it does.


* This does not make such trainers bad, only that relying on the speed data as a proxy for power is fraught with many sources of error.


Alex,

I find it difficult to understand what Obree is getting at here. Obviously he is pointing out that whatever you use - it must be accurate and repeatable. I read the chapter a few times and I still ask why his turbo is better than a power meter?

I think Obree 'likes' the horribleness of the trainer as he says it helps with generating good force throughout the pedal stroke. But I'm not sold on this.

He does not like power meters, but I am unable to understand why.

Trev.

I've not read what he says, nor do I know him personally, so really I can't speculate on what he is getting at.

What I will say is that there is no regular mag trainer that can be relied upon to be consistent to the same level of accuracy as can be assessed with a calibrated quality power meter.

It might be that he suggests that using a turbo, even if not super consistent, is good enough for the purpose (i.e. it's doing the training at the right level that matters, not the precise wattage) and that's fine.

As for not liking power meters, well that might be a personal thing, but intelligent use of a power meter includes an understanding of the psychology involved - and really that's the same issue no matter the measurement tool invoked.

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 03, 2012 05:34 am

Obree is saying in the book that any fans have to be removed from the magnetic turbo to improve accuracy, as the fan part is affected by temperature and air pressure, he claims his modified machine is accurate to +/- 0.5%.

He seems to have no interest in power meter data or software.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 03, 2012 05:50 am

He doesnt mention what the measurement is that he makes "accurate' either. Something that probably should have been included.

The whole book as far as I've read is nothing more than suggestive science and anecdote.

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 03, 2012 08:10 am

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:He doesnt mention what the measurement is that he makes "accurate' either. Something that probably should have been included.

The whole book as far as I've read is nothing more than suggestive science and anecdote.


Whatever his methods I would be wary in discounting Obree. He did invent the two fastest aero positions and break the hour record twice and was world pursuit champion a few times. His suggestive science and anecdote methods seem to work.

That said, I can't understand why he does not recommend using a power meter.

His views on rest & recovery are interesting.

doyler78
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby doyler78 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 08:45 am

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:He doesnt mention what the measurement is that he makes "accurate' either. Something that probably should have been included.

The whole book as far as I've read is nothing more than suggestive science and anecdote.


OK lets start with the basics.

1) He believes he has a setup on the turbo which means that the resistance between the turbo and wheel is always consistent (to a very small tolerance - a better tolerance than power meters)

2) If 1 proves correct then speed changes are power changes (dismiss that all you like but it is correct)

3) If you base all your key sessions on the turbo and you have greater accuracy than a power meter then why would you use a power meter (of course that assumes 1 is correct again)

That simply is all he is saying. There is nothing unusual in any of that. There are a many a coaches out there that will tell you that their best numbers (not necessarily results because numbers do not equal results but they sure as hell make it more likely) come from key sessions on a turbo except they use a power meter, some will even use RPE or HR.

Alex's problem with turbos stems from a knowledge of the commercial trainers out there as they are. What Obree does is basically take what is a sh1tty turbo and removes all the things that he has identified as possible sources of error. He further refines that by dealing with not only the trainer but the tyre setup. He is looking holisticly at the whole turbo and bike interface and doing what he needs to do to ensure that when he sees tiny changes in speed that they equate to real changes in power. It all hinges on point 1 and given this guys history and his knowledge of bike building & physics I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. Until someone actually measures it none of us will know.

So he doesn't dislike power meters it's just for him they just aren't accurate enough. At least that's my interpretation of what he has written.

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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 03, 2012 08:53 am

Trev The Rev wrote:Obree is saying in the book that any fans have to be removed from the magnetic turbo to improve accuracy, as the fan part is affected by temperature and air pressure, he claims his modified machine is accurate to +/- 0.5%.

He seems to have no interest in power meter data or software.

You would have to ask him how he verified that level of accuracy.

Whether or not he has an interest in power meters isn't really relevant. To perform better one needs to produce more power (all else equal) irrespective of whether you measure power or not.

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T.M.H.N.E.T
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby T.M.H.N.E.T » Wed Oct 03, 2012 08:55 am

Im still not seeing how increased speed =increased power. Especially in Obrees setup where only speed is measured,there is no way to gauge gains.

Perhaps Alex could explain.

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 03, 2012 09:21 am

To quote Obree on power meters.

"My honest opinion on this type of equipment is that not only is it of no real use in real time training, it is another distraction from the path of true self improvement. I have the same opinion of computers for road use and heart rate monitors, but for one exception..............". He says heart rate monitors they are of use to limit effort on recovery rides.

Obree goes on to say, " these appliances complicate the job of training on the road and they are hard to use as instant feed - back training aids in that training environment.........these devises are equivalent to a car speedometer that tells you what speeds you did once you have stopped - interesting, but useless."

Heretical views if you are a Coggan devotee.

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Pross
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Pross » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:01 am

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:Im still not seeing how increased speed =increased power. Especially in Obrees setup where only speed is measured,there is no way to gauge gains.

Perhaps Alex could explain.


On the assumption that all other variables have been taken out of the turbo trainer (which to me seems quite a big assumption) then what else could alter the speed other than changes to the effort being made?

To me it seems like typical Obree though - a slightly eccentric way of overcoming a problem when there are easier, established methods of doing the same (in this case using a callibrated power meter). I like Obree for this approach to things but don't necessarily think it is the way for the rest of us to do things!

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amaferanga
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:12 am

T.M.H.N.E.T wrote:Im still not seeing how increased speed =increased power. Especially in Obrees setup where only speed is measured,there is no way to gauge gains.

Perhaps Alex could explain.


All Obree knows (assuming he has managed to keep all other variables constant) is that more speed means more power, but not how much more power (unless he knows the power curve of his actual turbo trainer - not a generic one for that make/model of turbo trainer as clearly that wouldn't be accurate enough for his needs).
More problems but still living....

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amaferanga
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby amaferanga » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:15 am

you can't help but admire Obree's achievements, but as has always been the case, some of his views and opinions are just odd. He's doing everything he can to make a pseudo-powermeter from his turbo trainer, yet he claims powermeters are pointless. And then seems to claim that HR monitors are good for limiting effort on recovery rides, but power meters are not. Very odd views IMO. I can see why the Rev has a man crush on him.
More problems but still living....

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:03 am

amaferanga wrote:you can't help but admire Obree's achievements, but as has always been the case, some of his views and opinions are just odd. He's doing everything he can to make a pseudo-powermeter from his turbo trainer, yet he claims powermeters are pointless. And then seems to claim that HR monitors are good for limiting effort on recovery rides, but power meters are not. Very odd views IMO. I can see why the Rev has a man crush on him.


I am not with him on his turbo measuring device. I can see why he does not like to use a power meter out on the road but I don't get why he prefers his magnetic turbo to a decent power meter. I thought it might be cost or calibration or reliability issues he has, but he makes no mention of that.

mattshrops
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby mattshrops » Wed Oct 03, 2012 19:39 pm

You do have to love mr Obree. But for me i would always add a few provisos to his methods/advice.

1) The guy does seem to be an obsessive engineer/inventor type who very likely takes great pleasure from coming up with an alternative solution.

2)Physically he is very likely a genetic freak(in the nicest possible way) -if he trained by juggling potatoes on a unicycle he would still kick our arses.
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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Thu Oct 04, 2012 02:43 am

Trev The Rev wrote:To quote Obree on power meters.

"My honest opinion on this type of equipment is that not only is it of no real use in real time training, it is another distraction from the path of true self improvement. I have the same opinion of computers for road use and heart rate monitors, but for one exception..............". He says heart rate monitors they are of use to limit effort on recovery rides.

Obree goes on to say, " these appliances complicate the job of training on the road and they are hard to use as instant feed - back training aids in that training environment.........these devises are equivalent to a car speedometer that tells you what speeds you did once you have stopped - interesting, but useless."


They are just normal comments from someone that hasn't made the paradigm shift from training by power to training with power.

Trev The Rev
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby Trev The Rev » Thu Oct 04, 2012 06:39 am

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:To quote Obree on power meters.

"My honest opinion on this type of equipment is that not only is it of no real use in real time training, it is another distraction from the path of true self improvement. I have the same opinion of computers for road use and heart rate monitors, but for one exception..............". He says heart rate monitors they are of use to limit effort on recovery rides.

Obree goes on to say, " these appliances complicate the job of training on the road and they are hard to use as instant feed - back training aids in that training environment.........these devises are equivalent to a car speedometer that tells you what speeds you did once you have stopped - interesting, but useless."


They are just normal comments from someone that hasn't made the paradigm shift from training by power to training with power.


As I have said I don't understand Obree here and I agree with you. I have reasons why I don't like to train to or with power all the time but Obree has not explained in his book what his reasons are.

inspectorg69
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Re: FTP using Heart rate

Postby inspectorg69 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:49 pm

Thnaks Alex, really useful!
Interesting conversation too.
Sadly I took my other half to the Etape Cymru and now she wants a carbon women's road bike to chase all those other guys with tight butt's!
So I won't be getting power measurements any time soon!


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