Are Time Trials Safe?

Talk about your races - Time Trials, Road Races or Cyclocross.
NewTTer
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby NewTTer » Tue Oct 02, 2012 18:08 pm

danowat wrote:
amaferanga wrote: I for one don't take internet forums too seriously so when someone comes along with your kind of attitude I just hope they get bored quickly and go bang their drum elsewhere.


Wouldn't hold you breath on that one, Mr Trev has form, a lot of form............

His opinion is the only one that count's, and he starts screaming bully if you don't agree......

Has no one managed to track this clown down yet and "beat" some sense into him, he is very annoying, and I fear Danowat is quite correct he looks like a stayer, lets hope the mods ban sooner rather than later. And they need to do an IP address ban, not just his email address.

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Team4Luke
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Team4Luke » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:02 pm

dave35 wrote:Team4luke, although some riders do have trouble riding in a straight line,there is no excuse for a car to hit a cyclist from behind


Absolutely.
But it's reality we have to deal with and we can not do anything about vehicles, the TT world does a lot of winging about marshalls, lights, DC, SC etc etc and really we should do more to put our own house in order or at least add some balance to the argument.
Riders wobbling are increasing their chances of being hit and those that ride in the middle of a lane probably even moreso, some riders look like their going to have a heart attack at the end of a TT and they are just not in full control of their bike or mind, I don't know whether their just not fit enough or just pushing themselves to the edge of exhaustion or even bike TT bars position that just lessens the balance of the front end, the rider I identified was a youngster finishing he was duly shouted at by me, whether he heard I don't know.
Point being all please think about your riding style and position on the road and at turns and when passing riders and experienced riders please offer your club mates advice.
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Team4Luke
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Team4Luke » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:10 pm

Pross wrote:Out of interest does anyone know how many people compete in time trials each year and how many fatalities / live changing injuries (or even collisions with other road users) occur? There must be thousands of rides each week in open events alone without adding in club events. It seems to me it's just a perception that time trials are dangerous because they have traditionally been held on fast dual carriageway courses. There may be some courses that should be banned (those with slip roads joining along the route are a concern IMHO) but in many cases riding on dual carriageways provides cyclists with more space than riding on narrow country roads and I don't feel they are inherently unsafe. The turns are really the most vulnerable part and some riders do take unnecessary risks there rather than lose a few seconds.


it's just different types of dangers on the fast roads v minor/country ones, just that on SC/DC vehicles can be doing well beyond the speed limits for those, so say it's 50mph road we all know cars will be doing at least 60mph if not more together with the larger vehicle sizes that may use the road. The consideration is being hit at those speeds or even re-hit !
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Team4Luke
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Team4Luke » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:16 pm

Trev, do respect what your saying and attempt to make a stance but as above advice an internet forum won't change things.
Just steady down a bit, your views and common sense are overshadowed by your "red mist".
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Tom Butcher
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Tom Butcher » Tue Oct 02, 2012 19:22 pm

I'm not sure why people call Trev a troll. I should declare an interest here because I know him (as in real life not via a forum) but he's just expressing the same opinions here he has elsewhere. People are free to disagree or ignore as they see fit but I think banning would be totally uncalled for.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 03, 2012 05:37 am

Tom Butcher wrote:I'm not sure why people call Trev a troll. I should declare an interest here because I know him (as in real life not via a forum) but he's just expressing the same opinions here he has elsewhere. People are free to disagree or ignore as they see fit but I think banning would be totally uncalled for.



Tom,

Thanks for this.

I'm finally 'outed' as a real person.

Trev.

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Pross
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Pross » Wed Oct 03, 2012 08:42 am

Team4Luke wrote:it's just different types of dangers on the fast roads v minor/country ones, just that on SC/DC vehicles can be doing well beyond the speed limits for those, so say it's 50mph road we all know cars will be doing at least 60mph if not more together with the larger vehicle sizes that may use the road. The consideration is being hit at those speeds or even re-hit !


But the fact remains that fatalities and serious accidents in TTs are (thankfully) rare and, as with cycling in general, the perception of risk is far higher than the realities.
Last edited by Pross on Wed Oct 03, 2012 09:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Oct 03, 2012 09:35 am

In recent years there have been 2 or 3 fatalities each year, Almost all on dual carriageways. Not all are hit from behind. Some are where the rider rode into the back of a vehicle. You would have to contact CTT for the full figures.

DavidJB
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby DavidJB » Wed Oct 03, 2012 15:17 pm

So less than horse riding, crossing the road, driving a car, taking a bath, making some dinner....etc...ban it all and live in padded rooms for life.

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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby NewTTer » Wed Oct 03, 2012 15:59 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:In recent years there have been 2 or 3 fatalities each year, Almost all on dual carriageways. Not all are hit from behind. Some are where the rider rode into the back of a vehicle. You would have to contact CTT for the full figures.


And this is what as a percentage of people taking part?

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Team4Luke
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Team4Luke » Wed Oct 03, 2012 19:30 pm

DavidJB wrote:So less than horse riding, crossing the road, driving a car, taking a bath, making some dinner....etc...ban it all and live in padded rooms for life.


the difference being though that none of above is "sport" on the public highway and in some cases deliberately taking place on the fastest/dangerous roads possible, that is exactly how it will be viewed by any authority attempting to reduce what we do, not saying will occur but we do need to take a least a long look at what we do and where we do it, those that are not with us now, their spouse may not take kindly to how you have framed above. It doesn't make it right.
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Tom Butcher
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Oct 03, 2012 21:40 pm

In general TTing on DCs typically carries an increased risk of fatalities than other TT courses. Trev did post some figures on our club forum some time ago and they were fairly conclusive in that regard. Of course that doesn't mean the racing on a dual carriageway is high risk - just that it is higher risk. Whether that risk is acceptable is in my view something that should remain for the rider to decide.

Personally I don't think I'll ride one again and I've tried, unsuccessfully, to get our club to drop their BAR competition based on average speed as it incentivises riding these kind of events. If others want to organise or ride DC events that's up to them though - it's a bit like wearing a helmet - I most often don't but I'm not going to insist nobody else does.
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danowat
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby danowat » Thu Oct 04, 2012 08:36 am

DC events are popular, you can't argue that, until such a time as the demand isn't there, or they aren't allowed anymore, I will still ride and promote DC events.

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Pross
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Pross » Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:08 am

Tom Butcher wrote:In general TTing on DCs typically carries an increased risk of fatalities than other TT courses. Trev did post some figures on our club forum some time ago and they were fairly conclusive in that regard. Of course that doesn't mean the racing on a dual carriageway is high risk - just that it is higher risk. Whether that risk is acceptable is in my view something that should remain for the rider to decide.

Personally I don't think I'll ride one again and I've tried, unsuccessfully, to get our club to drop their BAR competition based on average speed as it incentivises riding these kind of events. If others want to organise or ride DC events that's up to them though - it's a bit like wearing a helmet - I most often don't but I'm not going to insist nobody else does.


Did his numbers take account of the relative numbers of miles time trialled on the DCs against other courses though? I agree that there are some risky courses out there, I don't ride events on the R25/7 anymore despite the fact it used to be the quickest course in the area before the R25/3 courses and it still being the course on which I set my modest PB. There have been a couple of fatalities on that course and I don't like the way I have to cross 3 junctions with slip roads. It was taken out of action for a while but that may have been due to the long term roadworks.

Personally I'm never going to be a serious tester and do few open TTs so won't be going around the country chasing times on drag strips but I think it is going too far to call the sport dangerous and suggest it should be banned.

GBY73
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby GBY73 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 18:46 pm

In my experience time trials have been far safer than road races!

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JGSI
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby JGSI » Fri Oct 05, 2012 08:20 am

GBY73 wrote:In my experience time trials have been far safer than road races!


Possibly because some of those participating in road races have been known to take inappropriate risks?
Riding in a bunch unlikely to get rear end shunted...

Tom Butcher
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Tom Butcher » Fri Oct 05, 2012 09:00 am

When was the last fatality in UK road racing - I know they have happened but I can't remember one since I've been competing which is 10 years or so.
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Trev The Rev
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Oct 05, 2012 09:59 am

Pross wrote:
Did his numbers take account of the relative numbers of miles time trialled on the DCs against other courses though? I agree that there are some risky courses out there, I don't ride events on the R25/7 anymore despite the fact it used to be the quickest course in the area before the R25/3 courses and it still being the course on which I set my modest PB. There have been a couple of fatalities on that course and I don't like the way I have to cross 3 junctions with slip roads. It was taken out of action for a while but that may have been due to the long term roadworks.

Personally I'm never going to be a serious tester and do few open TTs so won't be going around the country chasing times on drag strips but I think it is going too far to call the sport dangerous and suggest it should be banned.


How many fatalities do you need before you consider a course dangerous?

My numbers did not take account of miles ridden on dual carriageways compared to single carriageways because in the years I quoted all the deaths were on dual carriageways. In fact I don't know when the last death in a single carriageway TT was but I'm told by advocates of dual carriageway TTs that they are more dangerous in that there are more serious injuries on them.

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Team4Luke
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Team4Luke » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:29 pm

Tom Butcher wrote:When was the last fatality in UK road racing - I know they have happened but I can't remember one since I've been competing which is 10 years or so.



road races have the benefit of leading cars/bikes and following event associated traffic so they do not get overtaken by vehicles as often as tt riders do, completely different event environment. RR's take place on rural roads and not DC's. Probably more rider pile ups in RR though.
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SBezza
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Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby SBezza » Fri Oct 05, 2012 13:56 pm

To be honest, the chances are on a DC you will be hit from behind, or struck from the side (ie at a junction) at high speed and you are likely to become a fataility, whilst on a SC you are probably less likely to be hit from behind (though if you are I don't think being hit at 60 rather than 70/80 will change the outcome), but might be more likely to be hit from someone pulling out of a side street. There is obviously more likelyhood of crashing on a more techincal SC course through rider error.

More people die commuting to work on busy SC roads no doubt, should you be banned from there as well. Not all DC courses are equal however, I agree with Trev on the A50, and hence I will not ride on it, but there are other quite DC courses (either the time a TT is run, or just because it is a quiet DC) that are probably safer than alot of SC courses.

One of our local courses has to go over 2 train level crossings each lap, contend with vehicles in and out of a busy boot fair each lap as well as being a fairly techincal course, try telling me that is safer than all DC's and I will just laugh in your face. It is not only fast moving traffic that can be a danger to a cyclists, surely every cyclists knows this from incidents with cars on even the most rural roads whilst training.


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