Scary

New to Cycling? Want some advice? Start here...
User avatar
unixnerd
Posts: 2793
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 20:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Scary

Postby unixnerd » Mon Oct 08, 2012 21:00 pm

If it's shaking it may be due to low tyre pressure. Get a cheap track pump and go for around 100psi. A vibration could also be due to a buckled wheel of course.
http://www.strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible Price.
Specialized Roubaix SL3 Expert 2012, Cannondale CAAD5,
Marin Mount Vision (1997), Edinburgh Country tourer, 3 cats!

User avatar
Wacky Racer
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 18:19 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Wacky Racer » Mon Oct 08, 2012 21:03 pm

pearceygy wrote:Alright everyone, this is my first post I'm nearly 38 and I'm just starting out biking I've been going out for about 6 weeks, the first time I did 10 miles it nearly killed me and I was wondering if this was for me well I stuck at It and i'm loving it now doing about 25 miles on a run which takes me about an hour and half.
Regarding speed there's a bit of an hill on my route and I can get my bike up to about 37/38 mph but the bikes starts shaking this is where I crap myself and ease of, is this normal ? and can anyone advise me how I should be braking front or back ? both together?
cheers,

Tony.



When braking, as a rule of thumb, apply 75% to the front and 25% to the rear. Remember that when you start braking your weight shifts forward. Therefore most of your control under braking comes from the front, hard braking on the front will shift your weight forwards, ease off and you gradually shift weight back towards the rear wheel. It's best to practice if you are new to the bike, so you don't mess it up in an emergency.
Ridley Orion

User avatar
greentea
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: Scary

Postby greentea » Tue Oct 09, 2012 15:41 pm

pearceygy wrote:Alright everyone, this is my first post I'm nearly 38 and I'm just starting out biking I've been going out for about 6 weeks, the first time I did 10 miles it nearly killed me and I was wondering if this was for me well I stuck at It and i'm loving it now doing about 25 miles on a run which takes me about an hour and half.
Regarding speed there's a bit of an hill on my route and I can get my bike up to about 37/38 mph but the bikes starts shaking this is where I crap myself and ease of, is this normal ? and can anyone advise me how I should be braking front or back ? both together?
cheers,

Tony.



It should always be both together and 50-50 not 75-25 as someone else has suggested. If you apply too much front brake you run the risk of the wheel sliding out from underneath you. If this happens on the front there is absolutely no way back. You will fall and probably break something.

If you apply too much pressure to the back brake you run the risk of locking up and the tyre losing traction. This isnt good either, but compared to losing the front its 50% less likely to result in a crash as you can still control a rear-wheel slide. You cant control a front wheel slide if it gives way.

When you learn to ride a motorbike the front brake is more powerful than the back so its easy to lock up and lose the front wheel, so they teach you to apply both brakes together. To highlight this the instructor went along at 30mph on a flat road and placed a crash-test dummy on a make-shift zebra-crossing. He hit the marker with just the front brake on and went through the dummy, stopping about 5ft beyond the crossing. He then did it again with just the back brake applied, hit the same marker and then then through the dummy and finally stopped about 15ft beyond the crossing.
He then did it again, applied both brake 50-50, hit the marker, and stopped 5ft in front of the dummy. Just this little demonstration showed us all the importance of applying brakes 50-50.

The same applies to a road bike. Its always 50-50 as your weight moves forward as you stop so you must counter this with the same amount of brake power on the rear as the front. if you applied 75-25 toward the front then your body weight moving forward could be enough to lose traction on the front tyre resulting in a crash.

The other benefit of applying 50-50 is that if you feel you need to apply more pressure to the front or back brake you can do so without upsetting the balance of the bike so much. If you apply 75-25 to the front then feel you need more stopping power and accidently apply more to the front you run the risk of again losing the front wheel. If you apply more back brake in a 75-25 situation, you then run the risk of unbalancing the whole bike as you weight shifts forwards then suddenly shifts back causing a yo-yo effect.

So, remember, its always 50-50.

Secondly, NEVER grab the brakes unless its an emergency, in which case grab them as hard as possible and try to remain in a straight line on the bike.
Brake pressure, especially going downhill should always be applied gradually, at the same time. So pull the levers in so they start to bite, then pull them in firmly to apply more braking pressure. If you 'grab' the brakes and they bite instantly, again, you run a high risk of upsetting the bike and losing traction. Braking should always be about keeping the bike stable, its not about stopping on a sixpence. Its about scrubbing off speed in order to take the next corner so all braking should be ideally done before you turn into the corner.

So, 50-50. Brake applied gradually, then firmly. Scrub speed off before the corner, release brakes, then power through the corner, covering the brake levers in case of an emergency.

User avatar
Wacky Racer
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 18:19 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Wacky Racer » Tue Oct 09, 2012 17:57 pm

Sorry Greentea, I could not disagree more with you. All beginners tend to, or are advised to use 50/50 for braking, but it is a scientifically proven fact that more effective braking is achieved by using more front than rear, and 75/25 is a decent rule of thumb. 50/50 will not stop you as quickly as using more front than rear, anyone who has either plenty of experience, or someone who understands the science involved will tell you this. 50/50 is only conventional because it's the easier option until you are experienced enough to "feel" the best option.

In truth, braking is intuitive and relies on feel, something you can only achieve from experience. I am 51 years old and have been riding motorbikes since I was 16. I can stand a motorbike on its end and have years of track and road experience.

Sorry to disagree, but do some research and you will find I am correct.
Ridley Orion

jimmies
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 08:55 am

Re: Scary

Postby jimmies » Tue Oct 09, 2012 18:48 pm

actually in an emergency to stop the quickest you want to be applying 100/100 to both from and rear at the moment you actually stop.....but you get to 100% in an every increasing curve.

You want to be applying as much to each wheel as the conditions allow without braking traction. Start with a smaller amount of pressure to settle the bike....then increase the pressure as hard as the tyre will allow (this is feel) and continue to increase - as you stop you will be at 100/100

On a motorbike it is the same, the reason why it good to use some rear brake just before you pile on the front is to stop the bike pitching forward too sharply in an emergency situation, which would be difficult for most to control. I can do endo's/rolling stoppies till the cows come home......but in an emergency stop I stop much quicker and in more control when I use the rear brake and both wheels are on the tarmac

User avatar
greentea
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:18 pm

Re: Scary

Postby greentea » Tue Oct 09, 2012 22:24 pm

Wacky Racer wrote:Sorry Greentea, I could not disagree more with you. All beginners tend to, or are advised to use 50/50 for braking, but it is a scientifically proven fact that more effective braking is achieved by using more front than rear, and 75/25 is a decent rule of thumb. 50/50 will not stop you as quickly as using more front than rear, anyone who has either plenty of experience, or someone who understands the science involved will tell you this. 50/50 is only conventional because it's the easier option until you are experienced enough to "feel" the best option.

In truth, braking is intuitive and relies on feel, something you can only achieve from experience. I am 51 years old and have been riding motorbikes since I was 16. I can stand a motorbike on its end and have years of track and road experience.

Sorry to disagree, but do some research and you will find I am correct.


I dont need to do research, read my post you ignorant c*nt and stop trying to take the moral high ground. Ive been riding bikes for 25 years, ive raced at Brands Hatch, Silverstone and more race tracks than i care to mention. I can stand a motorbike on its end as well, i can also wheelie for 200yrds, ive done over 190mph on a track...so what?

If you read the OP he doesnt have confidence braking, which is why i said do 50/50, as 75/25 might be the optimal braking for you and me but this guy doesnt have our experience. So by all means, tell the newbie to go for 75/25 when he hits his first 40mph descent but dont be surprised when he loses the front and breaks his collarbone.

Next time you throw your old mans two-pence worth in, try reading the bloody OP properly before making out youre Valentino Rossi. Tw@t.

User avatar
BlakeysFC
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 15:34 pm

Re: Scary

Postby BlakeysFC » Wed Oct 10, 2012 03:17 am

Been riding for 11 weeks now regularly.

For about 6 weeks I was pretty fearless going down hills, going pretty much flat-out.

Then when I did the Cake Quest Sportive a few weeks ago I came down a hill in the wet going too fast and had to lock up the brakes sharpish before having to action-movie-style leap off the bike whilst still moving at the bottom, while still managing to stay on my feet.

Also had a similar thing happen down an unfamiliar hill, there was gravel all over the road at the bottom and I managed to again stay on my feet otherwise it could've been nasty.

After these near misses I'm probably a bit too sensible on the down-hills and go very slowly down steep inclines in particular. Even a hill I go down regularly I know slow down for significantly more than I used to.

You definitely learn by your mistakes!

slowondefy2
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2010 13:43 pm

Re: Scary

Postby slowondefy2 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:19 am

greentea wrote:... you ignorant c*nt ... Tw@t.


Well, that degenerated quickly :(

Guanajuato
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2012 21:41 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Guanajuato » Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:27 am

I know where the OP is coming from. Round here, there's a hell of a lot of very steep hills (~150m in 1km), where if you don't drag brakes you're up to 30mph+ in a couple of bike lengths. The road surfaces are terrible - all potholed, covered in bits of tarmac that should be in the potholes and invariably damp under trees, so you can't brake hard for corners or lean in very much, otherwise you end up on the opposite side of the road if you're lucky. These types of roads I'll keep my speed well down and make sure I've slowed right down in a straight line before a bend. Particularly as its quite likely some tosspot is coming up the hill in a car on the wrong side. I see some strava tracks with people doing insane speeds.

The A6 descent from Shap to Kendal is another story. 400m drop in 10km with one section dropping ~200m in 3km, followed by a bit of a climb, then gentle downhill with a final 100m drop in 3km without a straight bit in sight. Sight lines are generally good, curves are much more gentle, the road is wide and the surface is good in most parts. Without pedalling I tend to reach about 40mph and feel reasonably confident. It feels great and well worth the effort in the opposite direction. I wouldn't be so happy on other lakeland passes as the roads are narrower and also much busier. The tour went the girly way up Shap, from the north. :mrgreen:

As someone has already said, stick with what your comfortable with and keep at it - your confidence will grow and you'll get quicker. But human nature should stop you being a complete idiot! :D

Think someone got out of bed the wrong side this morning. :roll: Actually, looking at the timing of the post, failed to pull last night. :mrgreen: :wink:

TakeTurns
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:31 am

Re: Scary

Postby TakeTurns » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:01 am

The consequences are extremely severe of having an accident at high speed. Earlier in the year I had an accident whilst doing just under 30mph. Broken collar bone, road burns and wrecked carbon bike.

From the accident I've learnt a whole lot more about decending and technique. I hit 42mph recently on a decent. :D

User avatar
Wacky Racer
Posts: 606
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2008 18:19 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Wacky Racer » Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:42 am

greentea wrote:
Wacky Racer wrote:Sorry Greentea, I could not disagree more with you. All beginners tend to, or are advised to use 50/50 for braking, but it is a scientifically proven fact that more effective braking is achieved by using more front than rear, and 75/25 is a decent rule of thumb. 50/50 will not stop you as quickly as using more front than rear, anyone who has either plenty of experience, or someone who understands the science involved will tell you this. 50/50 is only conventional because it's the easier option until you are experienced enough to "feel" the best option.

In truth, braking is intuitive and relies on feel, something you can only achieve from experience. I am 51 years old and have been riding motorbikes since I was 16. I can stand a motorbike on its end and have years of track and road experience.

Sorry to disagree, but do some research and you will find I am correct.


I dont need to do research, read my post you ignorant c*nt and stop trying to take the moral high ground. Ive been riding bikes for 25 years, ive raced at Brands Hatch, Silverstone and more race tracks than i care to mention. I can stand a motorbike on its end as well, i can also wheelie for 200yrds, ive done over 190mph on a track...so what?

If you read the OP he doesnt have confidence braking, which is why i said do 50/50, as 75/25 might be the optimal braking for you and me but this guy doesnt have our experience. So by all means, tell the newbie to go for 75/25 when he hits his first 40mph descent but dont be surprised when he loses the front and breaks his collarbone.

Next time you throw your old mans two-pence worth in, try reading the bloody OP properly before making out youre Valentino Rossi. Tw@t.


I'm not going to stoop to your level. I did read your post - your opening line was "It should always be both together and 50-50 not 75-25 as someone else has suggested"

I also read the post, questioning whether he should use front, rear, or both, and I gave a sensible rule of thumb, which is accurate, and proven.

Now, whatever way I read your opening line, it comes out the same. Perhaps you should have re-read your own post before coming back with nothing more than ignorance, bluster and expletives?
Ridley Orion

Crawlinguphills
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 13:24 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Crawlinguphills » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:43 pm

slowondefy2 wrote:
greentea wrote:... you ignorant c*nt ... Tw@t.


Well, that degenerated quickly :(


'Boy, that escalated quickly... I mean, that really got out of hand fast.'

Name the movie. 5 points and a free 'punch to the ovarys'

Calpol
Posts: 982
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 20:31 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Calpol » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:51 pm

Back on the subject of speed. I guess I am fairly new to road biking having rediscovered it in 2011. I am not a big risk taker, in fact I probably suffer with higher anxiety levels than most! However, there is still something in me that wants to see how far I can push things.

My mileage this year has definitely improved my confidence to the point where on a group ride a couple of weekends someone rather flatteringly described me as a good descender. This is patently not the case as there are many more fearless riders around than me but nonetheless illustrates how time in the saddle can improve a lot of things. I hit 46mph last week on a descent near me and it felt pretty fast and close to my limit before bowel movement was involved but last year that possibly would have been 36mph.

I think the concentration levels for long Alpine type descents must be a huge challenge as you really have to try and relax but also remain very alert with great anticipation of what is ahead. I would love to attempt one of the European cols at some point and I reckon that coming down will be equally fatigue as going up for a novice.

User avatar
Mikey23
Posts: 5206
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 16:51 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Mikey23 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 12:58 pm

Should definitely be 60 40. Anyone who says different is stoopid ...

Crawlinguphills
Posts: 82
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 13:24 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Crawlinguphills » Wed Oct 10, 2012 13:12 pm

Calpol wrote:Back on the subject of speed. I guess I am fairly new to road biking having rediscovered it in 2011. I am not a big risk taker, in fact I probably suffer with higher anxiety levels than most! However, there is still something in me that wants to see how far I can push things.

My mileage this year has definitely improved my confidence to the point where on a group ride a couple of weekends someone rather flatteringly described me as a good descender. This is patently not the case as there are many more fearless riders around than me but nonetheless illustrates how time in the saddle can improve a lot of things. I hit 46mph last week on a descent near me and it felt pretty fast and close to my limit before bowel movement was involved but last year that possibly would have been 36mph.

I think the concentration levels for long Alpine type descents must be a huge challenge as you really have to try and relax but also remain very alert with great anticipation of what is ahead. I would love to attempt one of the European cols at some point and I reckon that coming down will be equally fatigue as going up for a novice.


We have a hill near us that is a - 10 gradient and as low as a -24 gradient, plus two hairpins. The maximum I have hot on this is 31.1mph and I nearly brake my hands on the way down squeezing the brakes. My girlfriend quite happily cruises down at about 35-40mph, and I have no idea how she does it, as its not a great road surface. I think I actually might be developing a phobia of descending, which is really annoying, as you dont get the pay off of the climb. I have no idea how to get over it, besides having my first 'off' and thinking that it wasnt so bad.

User avatar
unixnerd
Posts: 2793
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 20:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Scary

Postby unixnerd » Wed Oct 10, 2012 17:18 pm

I think I actually might be developing a phobia of descending,


I was a bit like that. It honestly just takes practice and going very slightly quicker or braking a bit later every time.
http://www.strathspey.co.uk - Quality Binoculars at a Sensible Price.
Specialized Roubaix SL3 Expert 2012, Cannondale CAAD5,
Marin Mount Vision (1997), Edinburgh Country tourer, 3 cats!

farrina
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 08:21 am

Re: Scary

Postby farrina » Wed Oct 10, 2012 17:53 pm

unixnerd wrote:
I think I actually might be developing a phobia of descending,


I was a bit like that. It honestly just takes practice and going very slightly quicker or braking a bit later every time.


I am currently in the phobic stage, the last two times I have come off have been on diesel, so I now seem to imagine it on every wet bend (especially the busier junctions).

One of the earlier posters hit the nail on the head - confidence builds until the next big off and then the process starts again.

Regard

Alan
Regards
Alan

JasonBrooke
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 22:16 pm

Re: Scary

Postby JasonBrooke » Wed Oct 10, 2012 18:28 pm

As a noob 50/50 sounds good to me...or both at the same time. Im sure that if you panic and are going too fast the thought of "now then is that 75/25 or 60/40 isn't going to cross your mind. So 50/50 makes it easier to appreciate and apply.

User avatar
Peddle Up!
Posts: 1810
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 19:10 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Peddle Up! » Wed Oct 10, 2012 18:34 pm

Maybe a good question to ask is "How do you know you're braking 50/50 or 60/40?".
Purveyor of "up" :)

User avatar
Mikey41
Posts: 679
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2012 16:06 pm

Re: Scary

Postby Mikey41 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 19:16 pm

You can't, it's just done by feel and practice.

Anyhoo, yeah it's a brilliant feeling descending fast on a bike, I saw 35mph today which was a great payoff for the miles of climbing I'd had to do before it :D

Feel vulnerable? Yep, but the application of common sense and looking well ahead is normally enough to avoid nasty situations.
Giant Defy 2 (2012)
Giant Defy Advanced 2 (2013)
Giant Revel 1 Ltd (2013)
Strava


Return to “Road Beginners”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests