Genuine question for Frenchie

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Timoid.
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Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Timoid. » Fri Oct 12, 2012 14:14 pm

Given that :
- Doping was institutional on ONCE/Liberty Seguros until 2006 (Contador was there 2003 - 2006)
- Doping on Discovery was institutional until at least 2007 and probably beyond (Contador was there from 2007 - 2010)
- That Marti was central to all doping operations and was Contador's personal "coach" until recently (at least 2011)
- That Contador has a positive clen test and indications of blood doping from the 2010 Tour

Do you really believe that Contador is clean not just another pharmacological product?

Genuine question. I do not want this to turn into a Frenchie bashing session.

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frenchfighter
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby frenchfighter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 14:32 pm

Jee wiz, can of worms here so I will keep it short.

Well the answer is no.

He was young and not a key member of those team first two teams and had no unbelievable results in that period.

He was not there under Lance and that pressure. As you know, lots of riders stopped doping in 2006ish. Stuff got a lot harder to get away with.

He has proven to be extremely strong mentally so I believe he could have been one of those that refused it, had he been offered. Lets not discount his brain condition either which it is not far fetched to say would lead him to be extremely careful with his health.

Ironically he started getting GT results after the doping era. That should ring bells to you that he was one of the ones that benefited from the cleaner sport.

Don't you think that he would have had someone tarnish him. There are loads of people out there who might have a reason to do so. None have. No one has in the docs that have come out too.

He always performed on the highest level, and even now, he is the World's best. And if I was to take a hypothetical view that he was doping before, I find it extremely difficult to believe he doped for the Vuelta. His performances are believable and consistent over years and within any given year.

Everything points to him being a very nice guy, very well respected by his colleagues and I haven't heard anyone bad mouthing him or saying he was doped.

Re the 2010 issue, that has been done to death so I am not stating my view on that again. He could even have been spiked...with the Frank Schleck case, I don't see that as totally unbelievable.

I reckon I will hold this view unless he comes out and says it himself or there is irrefutable proof.
Contador is the Greatest

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Nick Fitt
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Nick Fitt » Fri Oct 12, 2012 14:49 pm

frenchfighter wrote:Ironically he started getting GT results after the doping era. That should ring bells to you that he was one of the ones that benefited from the cleaner sport.


I think that too. The level of performance whilst doping became so high it was unattainable 'sober'. That we know. If you look at results of the past year (on uber hi-tech carbon whizz machines) and then look at the results of say 10 years back on supposedly heavier, metal bikes (cept rabobank), the times today are slower. Thus clean talent rises up again.

I hope I am not being sucked into a bubble of naivety again.

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Timoid.
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Timoid. » Fri Oct 12, 2012 14:58 pm

frenchfighter wrote:Jee wiz, can of worms here so I will keep it short.

Well the answer is no.

He was young and not a key member of those team first two teams and had no unbelievable results in that period.
He was not there under Lance and that pressure. As you know, lots of riders stopped doping in 2006ish. Stuff got a lot harder to get away with.

He has proven to be extremely strong mentally so I believe he could have been one of those that refused it, had he been offered. Lets not discount his brain condition either which it is not far fetched to say would lead him to be extremely careful with his health.

Ironically he started getting GT results after the doping era. That should ring bells to you that he was one of the ones that benefited from the cleaner sport.

Don't you think that he would have had someone tarnish him. There are loads of people out there who might have a reason to do so. None have. No one has in the docs that have come out too.

He always performed on the highest level, and even now, he is the World's best. And if I was to take a hypothetical view that he was doping before, I find it extremely difficult to believe he doped for the Vuelta. His performances are believable and consistent over years and within any given year.

Everything points to him being a very nice guy, very well respected by his colleagues and I haven't heard anyone bad mouthing him or saying he was doped.

Re the 2010 issue, that has been done to death so I am not stating my view on that again. He could even have been spiked...with the Frank Schleck case, I don't see that as totally unbelievable.

I reckon I will hold this view unless he comes out and says it himself or there is irrefutable proof.


Do you mean ONCE and LS? Cos he won the Tour for Bruyneel in 07.

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frenchfighter
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby frenchfighter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:01 pm

Yeah, was referring to the first two.
Contador is the Greatest

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Timoid.
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Timoid. » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:06 pm

frenchfighter wrote:Yeah, was referring to the first two.



Ok thanks. FWIW I think you're totally wrong and Contador is as big a fraud as any of them. I just cannot trust anyone who was a leader for a team run by Bruyneel. He would have to be the only one who stood up to Bruyneel in his entire tenure as DS.

I wish he was clean, but I just can't believe that he was. Thanks for the response.

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frenchfighter
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby frenchfighter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:21 pm

You're welcome.

Maybe Johan thought his time was up and he should play it safe and continue to make a good living from the sport. Then Lance lured him back.

Don't forget also that Contador won a lot of GT's without him.

Joahn also didn't like him - I remember that he preferred to be with Lance instead of in the DS car with Contador at Paris Nice as one example. There are many more.

As far as I am aware there were no dope incidents at the Disco of Contador's era. There were a lot at Astana, before, during and after Joahn's tenure.
Contador is the Greatest

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Timoid.
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Timoid. » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:36 pm

frenchfighter wrote:You're welcome.

Maybe Johan thought his time was up and he should play it safe and continue to make a good living from the sport. Then Lance lured him back.

Don't forget also that Contador won a lot of GT's without him.

Joahn also didn't like him - I remember that he preferred to be with Lance instead of in the DS car with Contador at Paris Nice as one example. There are many more.

As far as I am aware there were no dope incidents at the Disco of Contador's era. There were a lot at Astana, before, during and after Joahn's tenure.


Not according to Leipheimer's sworn affidavit. In paragraphs 80 through 86 he has stated that team wide doping was used.

Read: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Le ... idavit.pdf

Earlier on he names Marti as his dealer whilst at Gerolsteiner

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Pross
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Pross » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:39 pm

frenchfighter wrote:Jee wiz, can of worms here so I will keep it short.
...........
Lets not discount his brain condition either which it is not far fetched to say would lead him to be extremely careful with his health..........


I remember when those French people had their nose put out of joint by a Yank coming and winning their race a couple of years running and started what look like spiteful rumours about him my first reaction was "having survived a life threatening illness why would he risk his life?". I've since come to realise that to professional sports people the old cliche of winning being more important than life or death is actually true.

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frenchfighter
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby frenchfighter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:46 pm

Got it Timoid. Who is Rider-16 and Other-3 ?

Have you ever seen anything from anyone suggesting Contador was part of this inner circle of people who had come from Lance era US Postal?
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Art Vandelay
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:50 pm

FF - From another useful clinic thread:

Clinic Confirmations:
Rider 1: Paolo Savoldelli
Rider 2: Viatcheslav Ekimov/Beltran/Rubiera
Rider 3: Adriano Baffi
Rider 4: Bobby Julich
Rider 5: Manuel Beltran/Ekimov/Rubiera
Rider 6: Jose Luis Rubiera/Ekimov/Beltran
Rider 7: Roberto Heras
Rider 8: Victor Hugo Pena
Rider 9: Matthew White
Rider 10: Jose Azevedo/Noval/Padrnos
Rider 11: Benjamin Noval/Azevedo/Padrnos
Rider 12: Pavel Padrnos/Azevedo/Noval
Rider 13: Chann Mcrae
Rider 14:
Rider 15: Chris Horner
Rider 16: Yaroslav Popovych
Rider 17:
Rider 18:
Rider 19: Steffen Kjaergaard

Other 1: Emilio Magni
Other 2: Bjarne Riis
Other 3: Duffy ( or #5)
Other 4:
Other 5:
Other 6:
Other 7: Rick Crawford
Other 8: Geert Leinders
Other 16: Lapage or Demol (?)
Other 17: Andy Rihs
Other 18: Motoman

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frenchfighter
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby frenchfighter » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:55 pm

Thanks Art.
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Richmond Racer
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby Richmond Racer » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:56 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:FF - From another useful clinic thread:

Clinic Confirmations:
Rider 1: Paolo Savoldelli
Rider 2: Viatcheslav Ekimov/Beltran/Rubiera
Rider 3: Adriano Baffi
Rider 4: Bobby Julich
Rider 5: Manuel Beltran/Ekimov/Rubiera
Rider 6: Jose Luis Rubiera/Ekimov/Beltran
Rider 7: Roberto Heras
Rider 8: Victor Hugo Pena
Rider 9: Matthew White
Rider 10: Jose Azevedo/Noval/Padrnos
Rider 11: Benjamin Noval/Azevedo/Padrnos
Rider 12: Pavel Padrnos/Azevedo/Noval
Rider 13: Chann Mcrae
Rider 14:
Rider 15: Chris Horner
Rider 16: Yaroslav Popovych
Rider 17:
Rider 18:
Rider 19: Steffen Kjaergaard

Other 1: Emilio Magni
Other 2: Bjarne Riis
Other 3: Duffy ( or #5)
Other 4:
Other 5:
Other 6:
Other 7: Rick Crawford
Other 8: Geert Leinders
Other 16: Lapage or Demol (?)
Other 17: Andy Rihs
Other 18: Motoman




Just to be clear, what's meant by 'confirmations'?

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LangerDan
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby LangerDan » Fri Oct 12, 2012 16:07 pm

Richmond Racer wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:FF - From another useful clinic thread:

Clinic Confirmations:
Rider 1: Paolo Savoldelli
Rider 2: Viatcheslav Ekimov/Beltran/Rubiera
Rider 3: Adriano Baffi
Rider 4: Bobby Julich
Rider 5: Manuel Beltran/Ekimov/Rubiera
Rider 6: Jose Luis Rubiera/Ekimov/Beltran
Rider 7: Roberto Heras
Rider 8: Victor Hugo Pena
Rider 9: Matthew White
Rider 10: Jose Azevedo/Noval/Padrnos
Rider 11: Benjamin Noval/Azevedo/Padrnos
Rider 12: Pavel Padrnos/Azevedo/Noval
Rider 13: Chann Mcrae
Rider 14:
Rider 15: Chris Horner
Rider 16: Yaroslav Popovych
Rider 17:
Rider 18:
Rider 19: Steffen Kjaergaard

Other 1: Emilio Magni
Other 2: Bjarne Riis
Other 3: Duffy ( or #5)
Other 4:
Other 5:
Other 6:
Other 7: Rick Crawford
Other 8: Geert Leinders
Other 16: Lapage or Demol (?)
Other 17: Andy Rihs
Other 18: Motoman




Just to be clear, what's meant by 'confirmations'?


The list from the Clinic where they've determined who the individuals are from clues in the depositions. For example when there is reference to a rider 19 from USPS pulling out on the 2002 Vuelta, a check of the results shows that there 3 and process of elimination of the others - eg they are already explicitly named in USADA docs, leaves that Rider 19 is Kjaergaard. In other cases, they can only narrow it down to 2 or three individuals
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andyp
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby andyp » Fri Oct 12, 2012 16:23 pm

frenchfighter wrote:I reckon I will hold this view unless he comes out and says it himself or there is irrefutable proof.


Like a failed drug test followed by a doping sanction?

I know you think he is an amazing rider and a nice guy, but he is also a convicted drugs cheat who has now been named in two of the three largest doping busts of recent cycling history. To think he is clean with all the evidence against him is, frankly, ridiculous.

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DeadCalm
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby DeadCalm » Fri Oct 12, 2012 16:49 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:FF - From another useful clinic thread:

Clinic Confirmations:


Very similar (with one or two exceptions) to the list I posted in the main thread which was sourced from a Belgian website but quickly got buried. Here's that list again.

Taken from a Belgian forum:

1 Paolo Savoldelli
2 Manuel Beltran
3 Adriano Baffi
4 Bobby Julich
5 Jose Luis Rubiera
6 Pavel Padrnos
7 Roberto Heras
8 Victor Hugo Pena
9 Matthew White
10 Jose Azevedo
11 Vyatcheslav Ekimov
12 Benjamin Noval
13 Chann McRae
14 Michael Rasmussen
15 Chris Horner
16 Yaroslav Popovych
17 Marty Jemison?
18 Dylan Casey
19 Steffen Kjaergaard
20 Benoit Joachim
21 Tony Cruz
22 =EPO song

dortmunder
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby dortmunder » Fri Oct 12, 2012 17:39 pm

Pross wrote:
frenchfighter wrote:Jee wiz, can of worms here so I will keep it short.
...........
Lets not discount his brain condition either which it is not far fetched to say would lead him to be extremely careful with his health..........


I remember when those French people had their nose put out of joint by a Yank coming and winning their race a couple of years running and started what look like spiteful rumours about him my first reaction was "having survived a life threatening illness why would he risk his life?". I've since come to realise that to professional sports people the old cliche of winning being more important than life or death is actually true.


I don't go with the whole Bertie has a brain condition so would never take any PEDs. I thought the same about Lance for a while- he's had cancer why put anything into your system that could cause a relapse.

I've always looked at Contador with scepticism

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TMR
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby TMR » Fri Oct 12, 2012 17:49 pm

Timoid. wrote:Genuine question. I do not want this to turn into a Frenchie bashing session.


If you didn't want to turn it into a Frenchie bashing session then you should have PM'd him rather than making an open post on the forums. Not fair on him and he shouldn't have to defend his views IMHO.
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby ratsbeyfus » Fri Oct 12, 2012 19:25 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if a cornered LA and JB take Contador down with them when they go... it would help to muddy the waters a little and spread the pain that they must be feeling.
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dougzz
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Re: Genuine question for Frenchie

Postby dougzz » Fri Oct 12, 2012 19:31 pm

The Mad Rapper wrote:
Timoid. wrote:Genuine question. I do not want this to turn into a Frenchie bashing session.

If you didn't want to turn it into a Frenchie bashing session then you should have PM'd him rather than making an open post on the forums. Not fair on him and he shouldn't have to defend his views IMHO.

I agree with the Hincapie apologist, this was an unfair setup of the Bertie apologist. :roll:
Come on, we all defend our views, that's what these forums are about. Frenchie is plenty thick skinned enough to deal with this. I can only assume Timoid was being a little naughty here, it's clear from all the posts that like pretty much all of us in life, FF applies different standards to the people he likes and dislikes. I don't think he has a problem with dopers, so long as they're not wearing black socks.


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