Are Time Trials Safe?

Talk about your races - Time Trials, Road Races or Cyclocross.
Trev The Rev
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 09:10 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Oct 09, 2012 13:48 pm

Pross wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
danowat wrote:So because of statistics, the 100 or so deaths a year in general cycling is ok? :roll:

Again, its the drivers (lets be honest, the standard of driving in this country is terrible) that need education, not riders removed from the road.


No it is not OK. But when you consider the millions of cyclists on the road every day the risks involved are incredibly slight. You have more chance of being killed by an inanimate object, alcohol poisoning, accidental hanging / strangulation or inhalation / ingestion of food.

Out of the 100 odd cyclists killed on the roads in England & Wales, in 2007 only 41 were killed in a collision with cars or vans and only 27 in 2009. (one must assume the other deaths were from falling off or crashing into things). Time trials are responsible for an even greater percentage of deaths if you look at deaths involving vehicles.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... wales-2009


Your assumption is wrong. The 41 would appear to exclude collisions involving HGVs. I don't have the data for those specific years but for 2005-2007 82% of accidents with cycling fatalities (83% of KSI and 87% of slight) involved a collision with another vehicle. 0% (0.2% KSI and 0.4% slight) involved another cyclist, 0.7% (0.7% KSI and 0.6% of slight) involved pedestrians whilst for non-collision accidents the figures were 17%, 16% and 12% respectively. This should be caveated that the data only relates to reported accidents on the public highway as the figures come from the police STATS19 reports. Source:- TRL Report PPR445 "Collisions Involving Pedal Cyclists on Britain's Roads: Establishing The Causes"


There don't seem to be figures for HGVs only cars & vans. Even so I find it odd there were so few out of over 100 deaths involving cars & vans, also odd why there are no figures for HGVs when there are figures for everything else.
Also the falling off or hitting something could be caused by a car, van or HGV even if there was no collision with the offending vehicle.

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 15204
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Pross » Tue Oct 09, 2012 14:19 pm

Worth looking at the TRL report rather than the Guardian article for a full picture (if you're that way inclined, I've reviewed it as it's work related). You can download it for free here

http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/trl_reports/cat_road_user_safety/report_collisions_involving_pedal_cyclists_on_britain_s_roads_establishing_the_causes_.htm

mattshrops
Posts: 1150
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 22:18 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby mattshrops » Wed Oct 10, 2012 15:54 pm

Trev, i despair of people like you. Go and overregulate your own life. Leave mine alone. Life is a choice- leading to a thousand choices. I choose not to live in fear.
Death or Glory- Just another Story

DavidJB
Posts: 1721
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 07:38 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby DavidJB » Thu Oct 11, 2012 07:32 am

Trev The Rev wrote:I would not want to ban road races because, there are no deaths, unlike time trials, where there are 2 to 4 riders killed each year.


Some things are worse than death.

mamba80
Posts: 2421
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 13:06 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby mamba80 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 14:04 pm

what you need to realise TTR is that once you start down the slippery slope of banning DC TTing for this safety reason or that then what next? ban RR? limit it to ccts only? why stop there? ban cycling on puplic roads completely? ....... "if it saves just ONE life!"
because if people like you have your way, that is where we would end up, regardless of any merit your original argument may or may not have had.

Tom Butcher
Posts: 7046
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2003 22:07 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Tom Butcher » Thu Oct 11, 2012 14:21 pm

I agree - we don't want more regulation - when I read people on the TTF arguing for compulsory helmets though yet defending being allowed to ride DCs I do think hypocrites. Let people make their own mind up on both issues.
------------------------
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.

User avatar
sub55
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 17:11 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby sub55 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 16:09 pm

has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?
constantly reavalueating the situation and altering the perceived parameters accordingly

Trev The Rev
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 09:10 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:18 am

sub55 wrote:has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?


If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.

User avatar
Grill
Posts: 5378
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 08:27 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Grill » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:49 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
sub55 wrote:has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?


If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.


Seriously bro, did your woman dump you for a TTer or something? Your comments are nothing more than the vitriolic ramblings of a very small man with a very large axe to grind.

Oh and on my last 12hr TT I peed once around 9 hours in.
English Cycles V3 | Scott Plasma 3 TT | BMC TrackMachine TM01 | Ritchey Road Logic | Scott CX Team

Trev The Rev
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 09:10 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Grill wrote:Seriously bro, did your woman dump you for a TTer or something? Your comments are nothing more than the vitriolic ramblings of a very small man with a very large axe to grind.

Oh and on my last 12hr TT I peed once around 9 hours in.


I dumped all my ex wives some of whom said a lot of vitriolic things before they received the financial settlement.

I note the only thing you have chosen to point out you do not do, out of the above vitriolic rambling, is urinate often. I commend the size of your bladder.

User avatar
Grill
Posts: 5378
Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 08:27 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Grill » Fri Oct 12, 2012 13:20 pm

Indeed, that is because it's the first thing you mentioned. Looking at your list the only thing I've done is ride furiously round a roundabout, but only when clear and having the right of way.

Much like all the in mode articles about how cyclists are lawless thugs responsible for the decay of civilization, you've just assembled a list of pet-peeves. To say that all, or even most of those who attend TTs exhibit the behavior you've put forth is ridiculous. A few incidents by fewer individuals does not make a sport unsafe. Suggesting that roads should not be multi-use is just silly. I ride almost every day and always hit busy roads and dual carriageways. It comes with the territory of living in the centre, and beyond that actually getting from A to B. None of it is commuting, it's all sport.

I'm not worried about your soapbox preaching as long as no one takes you seriously. The reason I rarely mountain bike anymore is because I don't want to have to drive in order to ride, and I'll be damned if that's taken away from me on the road.
English Cycles V3 | Scott Plasma 3 TT | BMC TrackMachine TM01 | Ritchey Road Logic | Scott CX Team

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 15204
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Pross » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:12 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
sub55 wrote:has anybody ever quantified the statistical likelihood of being involved in a accident driving to a rase as opposed to riding the event.
on second thoughts, scrub that as TTR would probably argue that its the CTT's fault that you were on the rode in the first place.
may as well stay in bed. how many people died in bed last year?


If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.


Finally you've revealed your true colours. You don't like time triallists / time trialling so you dress this up with some nominal excuse to ban the sport.

Trev The Rev
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 09:10 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Fri Oct 12, 2012 15:50 pm

Pross wrote:Finally you've revealed your true colours. You don't like time triallists / time trialling so you dress this up with some nominal excuse to ban the sport.


I like time trialling on safe courses, not on dual carriageways. My earlier rant was not intended to be taken any more seriously than a bunch of old men dressed up in lycra and pointy hats pedaling up and down dual carriageways.

User avatar
Team4Luke
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 19:44 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Team4Luke » Fri Oct 12, 2012 17:17 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:If you look at the statistics, miles driven, journeys made etc etc driving is safer, provided you avoid the timetriallists urinating near the start, because they are so over hydrated they need to pee every 3 minutes, or so old their prostates are buggered, in full view of passing women & children; meandering all over the road, wearing the pointy hats, riding unstable machines in a daft position which requires a special Adamo saddle to avoid fertility issues; who are so busy looking at their power meter data they are not looking where they are going, (as evidenced by the number of riders who ride into the back of stationary vehicles), overtaking slower cyclists without checking for fast overtaking traffic from behind, riding furiously round roundabouts, and not giving way to motorists at turns to avoid losing momentum and losing another second, veering out into the path of fast overtaking HGVs when they try to consume a gel or energy drink; riding in an unstable wobbly exhausted state two abreast after the finish discussing average power and FTP; then congregating standing about in the road near the time keepers wearing obscene clothing which shows their religion trying to see what their time was whilst dropping gel wrappers, then riding back to the event HQ 3 abreast all over the road hurling abuse at annoyed motorists who have sounded their horn in frustration after waiting several minutes to be able to overtake them (safely); yes if you manage to avoid all that, without killing a timetriallist, or yourself avoiding killing one, then yes driving to a road race is safer.

I don't really want it banned, I just want them to put their sport in order and stop giving real cyclists a bad name.

Dual carriageways and busy roads should not be used for sport.



above happens full stop. To the extent I won't argue with. But we do need to look at our behaviour, I see a lot of this and we ought to improve here.
Team4Luke supports Cardiac Risk in the Young

mattshrops
Posts: 1150
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 22:18 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby mattshrops » Fri Oct 12, 2012 18:55 pm

so sportive riders etc never ride 3 abreast?
etc etc blah blah.
I really dont know why i'm bothering to reply.
(No doubt you will say <john major voice> yes but that doesnt make it right)

I cannot understand you. Please go away. (Yes not very intelligent/eloquent answer blahdeblah)
Why take something we enjoy and try to destroy it? If you really give a sh@t about peoples safety take your good intentions and use them to educate drivers(start a campaign or something) Do we really need internal divisions and strife? Maybe aggro is what floats your boat? I've read your posts on other topics and you're being all helpful etc but all i can think is you are worse than all the anti cycling gutter press all rolled into one.

You dont like it/think its not safe-fine. Dont do it.
If you dont do it- butt out.
Death or Glory- Just another Story

Trev The Rev
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 09:10 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Oct 15, 2012 08:17 am

I see Cycling Time Trials are encouraging using closed roads and are keen to develop a competition using closed roads, stately homes motor racing circuits and old airfields.

This is in my opinion the future of time trialling.

I also see they are saying that in the interests of fairness there should not be more than 1,000 vehicles per hour on dual carriageway courses or 500 vehicles per hour hour on single carriageway courses.

So they are saying that being passed by a vehicle travelling at up to and over 70mph every 3.6 seconds is not safe or fair competition presumably due to the pushing along effect of the passing vehicles.

How can being passed by a vehicle doing 50mph to 70mph or even faster every 3 or 4 seconds on a dual carriageway be anything but madness?

There are plenty of places to hold bicycle races; time trialling should move on and accept time trials on dual carriageways are as outdated as 32 and 36 spoke wheels and steel frames.

Here is the link I referred to.

http://www.ctt.org.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fi ... 90&mid=580

danowat
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 13:58 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby danowat » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:18 am

In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.

User avatar
Pross
Posts: 15204
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:32 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Pross » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:35 am

Trev The Rev wrote:I see Cycling Time Trials are encouraging using closed roads and are keen to develop a competition using closed roads, stately homes motor racing circuits and old airfields.

This is in my opinion the future of time trialling.

I also see they are saying that in the interests of fairness there should not be more than 1,000 vehicles per hour on dual carriageway courses or 500 vehicles per hour hour on single carriageway courses.

So they are saying that being passed by a vehicle travelling at up to and over 70mph every 3.6 seconds is not safe or fair competition presumably due to the pushing along effect of the passing vehicles.

How can being passed by a vehicle doing 50mph to 70mph or even faster every 3 or 4 seconds on a dual carriageway be anything but madness?
There are plenty of places to hold bicycle races; time trialling should move on and accept time trials on dual carriageways are as outdated as 32 and 36 spoke wheels and steel frames.

Here is the link I referred to.

http://www.ctt.org.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fi ... 90&mid=580


It's nowt to do with safety (although I agree it should be), the count rules are there to give a level playing field to competitors. Getting passed every 3.6 seconds on a dual would be fine as there would be nothing in the overtaking lane on those figures so plenty of space for safe overtaking, in reality it would be one every 5 seconds or so with other vehicles in the second lane.

Trev The Rev
Posts: 1005
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 09:10 am

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:05 am

danowat wrote:In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.


Given the average value of a time trialling machine, power meter, Garmin, skinsuit, aero helmet and wind tunnel visit these days, I would suggest most time triallists could afford a higher entry fee.

danowat
Posts: 2830
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 13:58 pm

Re: Are Time Trials Safe?

Postby danowat » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:09 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
danowat wrote:In an ideal world?, yes, but as we all know, this world is far from ideal........

Yes, closed circuits do have a place, however, there are just too many hurdles to overcome to make them the bread & butter events that people who time trial like.

Firstly, the cost, do you have any idea just how much it costs to hire such a venue?, its certainly not cheap.

Secondly, there is the issue of length and laps, now on a short(er) event, it's not much of an issue, but I certainly don't want to be doing 50 laps of a course.....

If closed courses were all that was available it would be the end of cycling for me.


Given the average value of a time trialling machine, power meter, Garmin, skinsuit, aero helmet and wind tunnel visit these days, I would suggest most time triallists could afford a higher entry fee.


Again, your prejudicial attitude towards time trialling skews your viewpoint, I'd have said expensive kit is in the minority, at least at most of the events in my district, and I don't know anyone who has visited a wind tunnel.......


Return to “Amateur Race”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests