Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Talk about competitive road cycling in all its forms
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Pross
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Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Pross » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:27 am

They're criminals. So says Canadian pro Will Routley [url]http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Whistler+cyclist+Will+Routley+says+competitors+used+PEDs+aren+just+cheaters+they+criminals/7502237/story.html?fb_action_ids=367611136659664&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%7B%22367611136659664%22%3A123189001170015%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22367611136659664%22%3A%22og.recommends%22%7D&action_ref_map=[][/url]

Apologies if this is in any of the other numerous threads, I haven't had a chance to catch up on them for a few days.

(Not sure why the link has gone funny!)
Last edited by Pross on Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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disgruntledgoat
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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby disgruntledgoat » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:29 am

I'm not a big fan of sending people to jail for cheating at sport. It just seems daft.
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Pross
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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Pross » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:32 am

I agree but there is surely an element of fraud / obtaining money by deception either in prize money or salary (although both cases would rely on the people who handed over the money not being aware of the cheating which in the case of salary is highly unlikely!).

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Richmond Racer » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:36 am

Pross wrote:I agree but there is surely an element of fraud / obtaining money by deception either in prize money or salary (although both cases would rely on the people who handed over the money not being aware of the cheating which in the case of salary is highly unlikely!).



Hmmm.....lets be honest, team owners, sponsors and organisers were hardly the innocents themselves in everything. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Rodrego Hernandez » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:37 am

On the surface they are simple sporting cheats but what this guy is saying is that they are also cheating clean riders out of opportunities.

For every chemically assisted win, there is a clean rider who didn't get the win, prize money and the subsequent opportunities.

Look at the decent UK pros in the 90s who made the odd venture abroad and achieved decent results yet were overshadowed by the cheats. Riders such as Matt Stephens, Chris Walker, John Tanner, Chris Lillywhite, Keith Reynolds, Simeon Hempsall. As far as I am aware, all of these guys were clean, had some decent international results yet were not able to get on internationally. These are the guys who should be most aggrieved by the EPO generation as they have missed out on a more successful, better paid career and possibly a career in management / commentary after retirement.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby TMR » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:39 am

Pross wrote:I agree but there is surely an element of fraud / obtaining money by deception either in prize money or salary (although both cases would rely on the people who handed over the money not being aware of the cheating which in the case of salary is highly unlikely!).


Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception as it used to be in the UK. I think it's been repealed by the Fraud Act 2006 though. But you're spot on. I agree with the view. The athlete has deceived his/her Team and sponsor(s) by presenting themselves as clean riders when that is not the case.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby disgruntledgoat » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:55 am

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:On the surface they are simple sporting cheats but what this guy is saying is that they are also cheating clean riders out of opportunities.

For every chemically assisted win, there is a clean rider who didn't get the win, prize money and the subsequent opportunities.

Look at the decent UK pros in the 90s who made the odd venture abroad and achieved decent results yet were overshadowed by the cheats. Riders such as Matt Stephens, Chris Walker, John Tanner, Chris Lillywhite, Keith Reynolds, Simeon Hempsall. As far as I am aware, all of these guys were clean, had some decent international results yet were not able to get on internationally. These are the guys who should be most aggrieved by the EPO generation as they have missed out on a more successful, better paid career and possibly a career in management / commentary after retirement.


So how do you apportion wins and rewards across not only a host of races where the victor hasn't been proved to cheat but across all the ones that have? How do you decide which riders the world over "never got the chance"? How do you compensate them for the endorsements and post-cyclin career they "should" have had?

You can't. It's an exercise in futility.
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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Rodrego Hernandez » Tue Nov 06, 2012 09:56 am

I'm not saying you should.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby TheBigBean » Tue Nov 06, 2012 15:37 pm

Personally, I have always thought it should be fraud, but it would be hard to prosecute as you would have to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt, so Contador would probably not have been prosecuted.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Crawlinguphills » Tue Nov 06, 2012 15:46 pm

disgruntledgoat wrote:I'm not a big fan of sending people to jail for cheating at sport. It just seems daft.


I think people look at this slightly incorrectly. Although it is a sport and is there primarily for our entertainment, it is still a job. In your average day to day job, if you claimed money that wasn't rightfully yours (say in your pay packet), or invented a contract for a deal to gain extra commission or hit a bonus target, what would happen? At best you would be sacked and your company would claw back the money, or at worst (depending on the size of the sums involved) you would be arrested and charged.

As far as I am concearned the riders who doped were commiting fraud. They were wilfully breaking contracts, rules, guidelines, moral codes whatever you want to call it in order to get their extra commission. Lying and cheating for financial gain.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby ddraver » Tue Nov 06, 2012 16:16 pm

On the flip side to the above, it's done a massive amount to put people off doping in countries where it is illegal under national law, e.g. France
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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby mike6 » Tue Nov 06, 2012 19:14 pm

It's fraud. Pure and simple. I believe there is at least one European country that has the offence of "Sporting Fraud" It may be France.
It is a job. Big contracts are gained by winning races.
Would Armstrong be a multi millionaire if he had not "Won" 7 Tours?????? No, he would not. Would he have been sponsored by Nike, Trek, Oakley, etc etc without winning the Tour? Of course not.
Consequently he has defrauded these companies. This is probably why the Tour wants its money back.
You could argue he has defrauded all the people who bought yellow wrist bands on the strength of him being a "superhero, cancer survivor who can win the Tour".

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Vino'sGhost » Tue Nov 06, 2012 20:06 pm

IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

i feel better now

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby k1875 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:23 am

Vino'sGhost wrote:IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.


That'll be why everyone was / is openly doping then ? Why Bertie just rolled over and accepted he'd taken a wee drop of clen and Armstrong has held his hands up ?

If you stand up in public and declare "i'm clean" and you are offered a contract on that basis (regardless of whether your team, sponsors or fans know it's possibly / likely / certainly false), that is fraud. Your opinion as to whether that matters or not doesn't change that fact i'm afraid.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Crawlinguphills » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:45 am

k1875 wrote:
Vino'sGhost wrote:IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.


That'll be why everyone was / is openly doping then ? Why Bertie just rolled over and accepted he'd taken a wee drop of clen and Armstrong has held his hands up ?

If you stand up in public and declare "i'm clean" and you are offered a contract on that basis (regardless of whether your team, sponsors or fans know it's possibly / likely / certainly false), that is fraud. Your opinion as to whether that matters or not doesn't change that fact i'm afraid.


Exactly, I dont get this attitude of 'its sport, so therefore it cant be fraud.' If it could be considered fraudulent in any other industry and business, then it is sure as hell also fraudulent in sport. Riding a bike for a professional team is a JOB. Subject to the rules and regulations of all other jobs. Doping itself is now a criminal act in France. For me its simple, return the money you won while doping, or be charged with fraud.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby disgruntledgoat » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:48 am

Crawlinguphills wrote:
k1875 wrote:
Vino'sGhost wrote:IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.


That'll be why everyone was / is openly doping then ? Why Bertie just rolled over and accepted he'd taken a wee drop of clen and Armstrong has held his hands up ?

If you stand up in public and declare "i'm clean" and you are offered a contract on that basis (regardless of whether your team, sponsors or fans know it's possibly / likely / certainly false), that is fraud. Your opinion as to whether that matters or not doesn't change that fact i'm afraid.


Exactly, I dont get this attitude of 'its sport, so therefore it cant be fraud.' If it could be considered fraudulent in any other industry and business, then it is sure as hell also fraudulent in sport. Riding a bike for a professional team is a JOB. Subject to the rules and regulations of all other jobs. Doping itself is now a criminal act in France. For me its simple, return the money you won while doping, or be charged with fraud.


I'm unsure if returning the money you stole means you get awa with stealing it in the first place.
"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby ALIHISGREAT » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:49 am

disgruntledgoat wrote:I'm not a big fan of sending people to jail for cheating at sport. It just seems daft.


I think you fail to see the distinction between 'sport' and 'professional sport' and you seem to be generalizing and assuming all sport is the same.. in that its just the action of playing a game or whatever.

Think about committing fraud when playing monopoly at Christmas with your family, and committing fraud when running a £million property Business.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Richmond Racer » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:12 pm

Just got around to reading that article by Will Routley

He's on the money re the dopers who are confessing now

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby nathancom » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:22 pm

Vino'sGhost wrote:IS IT Boll***s fraud, everyone sponsors, teams, riders know what goes on. even outsiders the "fans" know whats happening.

All these bleeding hearts appearing now. get over themselves.

i feel better now

Yes because we want to maintain a culture which encourages young sportspeople to risk their lives by pushing chemical assistance to the limit... :roll:

How about the Skins case against UCI, isn't this the same argument being used just in reverse. I can't see Skins being successful.

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Re: Those Who Use PEDs Are Not Just Cheats...

Postby Crawlinguphills » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:47 pm

A good example is Adrian Mutu who used to play for Chelsea. Chelsea signed him for around 16 million. Mutu was then caught taking coke and sacked from Chelsea. Chelsea then sued him for the 16 million transfer fee and won, as it was breach of contract.

I can see very little difference, besides the fact that alot of these guys have stood up in court and denied these allegations, which is Perjury.


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