10 -42 T cassette!

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lawman
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby lawman » Tue Nov 13, 2012 20:31 pm

bennett_346 wrote:10 speed components are already cheaper than their equivalent 9 speed components in a lot of cases.


This is the thing, perhaps as 10 speed becomes more commonplace and 9 speed dies out, part stocks will go down and 9 speed might become more expensive... you never know!

Chunkers1980
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby Chunkers1980 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 20:34 pm

Isn't that what he said?

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bennett_346
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby bennett_346 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 20:36 pm

Chunkers1980 wrote:Isn't that what he said?

Yep.

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lawman
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby lawman » Tue Nov 13, 2012 20:37 pm

Chunkers1980 wrote:Isn't that what he said?


Well some 9 speed things are more expensive, but not all, just a possibility that ALL 9 speed stuff could become more expensive.

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bennett_346
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby bennett_346 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 20:37 pm

lawman wrote:
Chunkers1980 wrote:Isn't that what he said?


Well some 9 speed things are more expensive, but not all, just a possibility that ALL 9 speed stuff could become more expensive.

Ah i see. Maybe, but it's more in depth than that.

coursemyhorse
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby coursemyhorse » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:02 am

I agree that I think the future is the use of single chainring setups where no front mech is used. I think this kind of system like the XX1 will eventually filter down and spawn competitor systems from Shimano. Hope talked about their 9x36 cassette with their particular compatible hubs, but nothing came of it.

I think all people want is to just see an extension to 1x10/11-36, by just having a slightly wider gear spread. Whether this means going to 11 speed or whatever, the cost needs to be controlled. If they can make it compatible with 10 speed that's better for existing setups to be utilized. I don't think people are even bothered about having to run a guide. It is a nice feature of XX1 to not need one and will also surely filter down, but I am not sure I would pay a premium for it, when I can buy a setup with a suitable guide for a lot less.

It's all about getting that slightly better gear ratio spread so that 1x10 setups are less "compromised". I think Hope were onto a winner with their 9x36 cassette which could have used existing 10 speed stuff, it just needed a more expensive Hope Pro hub to match it. The cost still would have been loads cheaper than the XX1 setup where you are made to buy into the whole thing.

Bottom line is XX1 is currently £950, and building a 1x10 setup from scratch with a slightly more compromised gear ratio spread, with very decent components, can be done for say under £200. (using existing cranks).

I don't think even the most dedicated MTB fans are going to splash nearly a grand on a drivetrain components of which are the thing that will wear most on a bike. You could buy another bike for that brand new. Cutting edge tech brings cutting edge pricing though.

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njee20
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby njee20 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:39 am

Bottom line is XX1 is currently £950, and building a 1x10 setup from scratch with a slightly more compromised gear ratio spread, with very decent components, can be done for say under £200.


At a similar weight? XX1 is super light, to match it you're looking at XX or XTR, and what's the price comparison there.... oh, about the same.

It will filter down, and will be heavier, but XX1 isn't a case of 'this is the cheapest we could go', it's top end kit, with a price to match.

I don't think even the most dedicated MTB fans are going to splash nearly a grand on a drivetrain components of which are the thing that will wear most on a bike. You could buy another bike for that brand new. Cutting edge tech brings cutting edge pricing though.


You miss the point, as above. But yes, most won't, but a number will. If I was building a new race bike for next year it would have XX1 no doubt about it. As it is I'm half tempted to change, got some DT240s I could use, probably get decent money for all my XTR.

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lawman
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby lawman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:45 am

coursemyhorse wrote:I agree that I think the future is the use of single chainring setups where no front mech is used. I think this kind of system like the XX1 will eventually filter down and spawn competitor systems from Shimano. Hope talked about their 9x36 cassette with their particular compatible hubs, but nothing came of it.

I think all people want is to just see an extension to 1x10/11-36, by just having a slightly wider gear spread. Whether this means going to 11 speed or whatever, the cost needs to be controlled. If they can make it compatible with 10 speed that's better for existing setups to be utilized. I don't think people are even bothered about having to run a guide. It is a nice feature of XX1 to not need one and will also surely filter down, but I am not sure I would pay a premium for it, when I can buy a setup with a suitable guide for a lot less.

It's all about getting that slightly better gear ratio spread so that 1x10 setups are less "compromised". I think Hope were onto a winner with their 9x36 cassette which could have used existing 10 speed stuff, it just needed a more expensive Hope Pro hub to match it. The cost still would have been loads cheaper than the XX1 setup where you are made to buy into the whole thing.

Bottom line is XX1 is currently £950, and building a 1x10 setup from scratch with a slightly more compromised gear ratio spread, with very decent components, can be done for say under £200. (using existing cranks).

I don't think even the most dedicated MTB fans are going to splash nearly a grand on a drivetrain components of which are the thing that will wear most on a bike. You could buy another bike for that brand new. Cutting edge tech brings cutting edge pricing though.


The trouble with the 9t cog is its not ideal for pedaling, the 10t seems from srams research to be more suitable, as they pretty much had 9-36 10 speed stuff quite far along in development. I think they also saw the monetary benefits of yet another new standard, but like I said if buying new there is no problem with the compatibility. For people who change bikes every 5 years or so, its not really going to be justified a 1x10 system can be done very cheaply as you say, I changed my hardtail to full 1x10 xt using the exiating cranks for less £150. But others who change bikes more frequently, and this forum is a damn good example of that, there should be no issues.

coursemyhorse
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby coursemyhorse » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:23 am

njee20 wrote:
Bottom line is XX1 is currently £950, and building a 1x10 setup from scratch with a slightly more compromised gear ratio spread, with very decent components, can be done for say under £200.


At a similar weight? XX1 is super light, to match it you're looking at XX or XTR, and what's the price comparison there.... oh, about the same.

It will filter down, and will be heavier, but XX1 isn't a case of 'this is the cheapest we could go', it's top end kit, with a price to match.

I don't think even the most dedicated MTB fans are going to splash nearly a grand on a drivetrain components of which are the thing that will wear most on a bike. You could buy another bike for that brand new. Cutting edge tech brings cutting edge pricing though.


You miss the point, as above. But yes, most won't, but a number will. If I was building a new race bike for next year it would have XX1 no doubt about it. As it is I'm half tempted to change, got some DT240s I could use, probably get decent money for all my XTR.



I understand part of the premium is the low weight yes. Of course it's not "the cheapest we could go" as you say. I'm saying I think we would all like to see something pitched at XT/X9 level/weight/pricing that gives a better spread for a 1x10 setup. It's just disappointing to see something finally come out and be way out of reach for the majority of people in terms of pricing, because they pitched it as high end. It's not that technologically advanced. They have a monopoly though so can do this. We need competition from Hope/Shimano/whoever in the market for prices to come down.

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lawman
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby lawman » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:37 am

coursemyhorse wrote:
njee20 wrote:
Bottom line is XX1 is currently £950, and building a 1x10 setup from scratch with a slightly more compromised gear ratio spread, with very decent components, can be done for say under £200.


At a similar weight? XX1 is super light, to match it you're looking at XX or XTR, and what's the price comparison there.... oh, about the same.

It will filter down, and will be heavier, but XX1 isn't a case of 'this is the cheapest we could go', it's top end kit, with a price to match.

I don't think even the most dedicated MTB fans are going to splash nearly a grand on a drivetrain components of which are the thing that will wear most on a bike. You could buy another bike for that brand new. Cutting edge tech brings cutting edge pricing though.


You miss the point, as above. But yes, most won't, but a number will. If I was building a new race bike for next year it would have XX1 no doubt about it. As it is I'm half tempted to change, got some DT240s I could use, probably get decent money for all my XTR.



I understand part of the premium is the low weight yes. Of course it's not "the cheapest we could go" as you say. I'm saying I think we would all like to see something pitched at XT/X9 level/weight/pricing that gives a better spread for a 1x10 setup. It's just disappointing to see something finally come out and be way out of reach for the majority of people in terms of pricing, because they pitched it as high end. It's not that technologically advanced. They have a monopoly though so can do this. We need competition from Hope/Shimano/whoever in the market for prices to come down.


I'm pretty sure much like 2x10 XX and the 2x10 groups that followed it release, we can expect an X0/X9/X7 level version of xx1 for 2014.

What can we expect from shimano? Who knows, but it'll be at least mid 2013 before we see anything remotely similar I think. Be interesting to see what they do release though and how quickly they react, as the enduro/Am market is huge and they will miss out massively if they don't bring out something to compete.

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YeehaaMcgee
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby YeehaaMcgee » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:58 am

coursemyhorse wrote:I agree that I think the future is the use of single chainring setups where no front mech is used.

I'd disagree with that. Removing the front chainring will always result in reducing the total range of gear ratios, and for some areas, and some riding, that's just not a sensible thing to do.

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supersonic
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:16 pm

Does anybody know the weight of the xx components?

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bennett_346
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby bennett_346 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:21 pm

WEIGHTS (see caveats below comparo)

SRAM XX ----------------------------------Shimano XTR
Shift Lever Set 183g……………………………235.87
Rear Derailleur 181g…………………………..199.58
Front Derailleur Low Mount 118g……..127.01
Cassette 11-32 185g…………………………...244.94
Crankset 39/26 BB30 670g………………….780.18
Chain 260g………………………………………....281.23
Brakes, pair, 160mm rotors: 613g………734.82
Grand Total 2,210 grams**………………….2,603 grams

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supersonic
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:40 pm

My weights for XTR are:

Long cage shadow plus rear mech - 177g
Front mech - 131g
Chainset (double 44/30 with BB) - 740g
Cassette 11-36 - 272g
Chain (114 links) - 262g
Shifters - 226g (inc inner cables)

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bennett_346
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby bennett_346 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:43 pm

Seems XX really is a lot lighter then. Justification of the price though? Not in my eyes.

I'd be more interested in a groupset that lasted a LONG time between needing new chainrings, cassette, chain etc.

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supersonic
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:45 pm

Only the cassette and brakes really. The rest is just a few grams in it.

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supersonic
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:45 pm

But... I meant to ask XX1 doh! Was wondering why there was a front mech in that list haha!

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bennett_346
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby bennett_346 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:48 pm

I doubt there's much in it. Weight isn't the aim of XX1 in my eyes, versatility is what they have aimed for.

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supersonic
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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:55 pm

I think weight is a factor - dropping the front mech and shifter but keeping a wide range will reduce complexity and weight. It is a good idea and something I predicted years ago. Starting it with XX1 though, right at the top, will get people to splash a lot of money and they will rake it in. Then it will trickle down.

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Re: 10 -42 T cassette!

Postby Northwind » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:59 pm

Oh aye, according to MBR the XX1 chainring is 10-speed compatible. It's bloomin expensive mind and has a funky BCD but that could still be a nice upgrade for the 1x10 crowd if they're right.
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