29ers

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The Rookie
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Re: 29ers

Postby The Rookie » Wed Nov 21, 2012 06:57 am

Yes Trolcyd, but a rider will always know what wheels are fitted, it's obvious, however the garmin didn't know, so that covers the timers! As for lots more riders or circuits, impratical. The data is certainly statistically significant in showing 26ers to be slower.

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ddraver
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Re: 29ers

Postby ddraver » Wed Nov 21, 2012 08:43 am

Further to The Beginners point - A rider has to know what wheels he is riding so he can adjust the optimum line to what best suits them to make the test applicable in the real world - line choice is part of bike racing after all....

What amuses me slightly through all of this is that people seem to think that all this was done before 26in wheels appeared. No, Keith Bontrager just cut out 2in from a 28in road rim and welded it back together? You think the Klunkers did double blind studies to scientifically establish the best wheel width for off road riding? Like, whatever dude, Come on!
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mrmonkfinger
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Re: 29ers

Postby mrmonkfinger » Wed Nov 21, 2012 09:06 am

ddraver wrote:You think the Klunkers did double blind studies to scientifically establish the best wheel width for off road riding? Like, whatever dude, Come on!


I'll have you know Keith Bontrager, Gary Fisher and Tom Ritchey were some of the finest scientific minds produced during the 20th century.

EH_Rob
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Re: 29ers

Postby EH_Rob » Wed Nov 21, 2012 16:31 pm

The Beginner wrote:The data is certainly statistically significant in showing 26ers to be slower.


I can just see a table with times in it and a bar chart. To claim statistical significance requires a test. Whereabouts have you got this from?

RockmonkeySC
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Re: 29ers

Postby RockmonkeySC » Wed Nov 21, 2012 19:45 pm

Surely a test carried out by a magazine which relies on advertising from manufacturers who are putting all their efforts in to selling bigger wheels could never be trusted as 100% accurate. MBUK, MBR and all the others have to keep their advertisers happy and would put that before honest reviews.

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ddraver
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Re: 29ers

Postby ddraver » Wed Nov 21, 2012 20:47 pm

I feel a standard, we don't give favourable reviews to advertisers comment coming out way....
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njee20
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Re: 29ers

Postby njee20 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 20:54 pm

Surely a test carried out by a magazine which relies on advertising from manufacturers who are putting all their efforts in to selling bigger wheels could never be trusted as 100% accurate. MBUK, MBR and all the others have to keep their advertisers happy and would put that before honest reviews.


Except Matt doesn't work for MBUK and doesn't make his money nor have any real affiliation with them...

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Re: 29ers

Postby RockmonkeySC » Wed Nov 21, 2012 21:16 pm

ddraver wrote:I feel a standard, we don't give favourable reviews to advertisers comment coming out way....


The Specialized Hardrock used to win every beginners bike under £600 test despite being a bag of sh1t (I bought one) which is incredibly poor value. Specialized spend a lot on advertising with MBR/MBUK

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njee20
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Re: 29ers

Postby njee20 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 21:18 pm

Ok, but that had nothing to do with this test, at all.

RockmonkeySC
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Re: 29ers

Postby RockmonkeySC » Wed Nov 21, 2012 21:48 pm

No but it does suggest that magazines print what their advertisers what to see and they want people to read that their latest big wheel bikes are better than your old 26" piece of shoot

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ddraver
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Re: 29ers

Postby ddraver » Wed Nov 21, 2012 21:49 pm

RockmonkeySC wrote:
ddraver wrote:I feel a standard, we don't give favourable reviews to advertisers comment coming out way....


The Specialized Hardrock used to win every beginners bike under £600 test despite being a bag of sh1t (I bought one) which is incredibly poor value. Specialized spend a lot on advertising with MBR/MBUK


In your opinion.

I rode my Dads version of something like that and was very impressed for what it cost....
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ddraver
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Re: 29ers

Postby ddraver » Wed Nov 21, 2012 22:21 pm

Well whatever, same deal....
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supersonic
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Re: 29ers

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 21, 2012 23:06 pm

Specialized spend a lot on advertising with MBR/MBUK


Has nothing to do with test results. At all.

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bennett_346
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Re: 29ers

Postby bennett_346 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 23:19 pm

cyd190468 wrote:Probably because I'm a pedantic science teacher.

Primary school or nursery?

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The Rookie
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Re: 29ers

Postby The Rookie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 05:41 am

cyd190468 wrote:
The Beginner wrote: The data is certainly statistically significant in showing 26ers to be slower.

You obviously haven't done statistics at uni .

I don't need to see that the difference is so large and consistent, so as to make it relevant, a larger gap means less tests required, medication is to do with safety not relevance so your analogy is irrelevant!

EH_Rob
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Re: 29ers

Postby EH_Rob » Thu Nov 22, 2012 09:43 am

He is being pedantic to a point, but it irritates me too so I'll have a rant.

You cannot infer statistical significance by looking at a graph, even if it had error bars. The sample size is too low for robust analysis regardless of what you can see, so even if you did some analysis it's probable that no difference would be detected.

Because his analogy is to do with something else doesn't make it irrelevant, it just suits you to say it is (a bit like when you decided that no statistical test is required for the inference of statistical signficance). He's right in the sense that if you had the resources to conduct a full on, scientifically and statistically valid study, you would be required to go down the route of substantially increasing sample size, as is the case for lots of things where you're looking to detect and measure change. That is the first thing you do to increase the power of a study like this.

I appreciate that this isn't what Matt was trying to do here, and think it's a well written and interesting article when taken at face value.

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The Rookie
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Re: 29ers

Postby The Rookie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:01 pm

I'm using the numbers not the graphs.....but I think I'm right, you don't, get over it.

ccrdave
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Re: 29ers

Postby ccrdave » Thu Nov 22, 2012 16:53 pm

well for what its worth my very unscientific observation. My main bike is (was) a cube stereo, I built a very cheap 29er hardtail to see what the fuss is about, I was very impressed to say the least. In fact I sold the stereo bought myself a 29er giant anthem and its a fantastic bike, faster than the cube, much faster! more stable , nicer to ride and as, if not more flickable than the stereo. It climbs miles better, descends about the same.
I used to be always at the back of the group I ride with , now I am at the front (nearly)
Ok maybe its a different style of bike but I absolutely love it.
I dont think I will be going back to 26, I am not impressed by advertising hype and always try to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and this time at least for me it paid off.

EH_Rob
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Re: 29ers

Postby EH_Rob » Thu Nov 22, 2012 17:00 pm

I don't agree or disagree with any of your views on the article, that isn't what prompted the comment. I was just pointing out your misunderstanding of 'statistical significance' has caused you to make up a conclusion based on nothing but your own opinion, which goes against the exact purpose of a statistical test.

In defence of cyd, I am a scientist, and as I'm sure you can tell you've found a good way to annoy us! :)

lostboysaint
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Re: 29ers

Postby lostboysaint » Thu Nov 22, 2012 17:10 pm

ccrdave wrote:well for what its worth my very unscientific observation. My main bike is (was) a cube stereo, I built a very cheap 29er hardtail to see what the fuss is about, I was very impressed to say the least. In fact I sold the stereo bought myself a 29er giant anthem and its a fantastic bike, faster than the cube, much faster! more stable , nicer to ride and as, if not more flickable than the stereo. It climbs miles better, descends about the same.
I used to be always at the back of the group I ride with , now I am at the front (nearly)
Ok maybe its a different style of bike but I absolutely love it.
I dont think I will be going back to 26, I am not impressed by advertising hype and always try to put my money where my mouth is so to speak, and this time at least for me it paid off.


I look forward to your post when you get a 36er then!

Perhaps you just didn't have the best 26er for your riding?! Interesting that the 29er that you bought is designed to for a significantly different purpose to the 26er that you owned. (a lightweight XC full-sus rocketship vs a mid-travel trail bike)
Trail fun - Transition Bandit
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