Red lights and other traffic stuff.

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Ouija
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby Ouija » Tue Nov 20, 2012 21:05 pm

Always used to wait at lights until a year ago, when some clever sod in traffic management thought it would be a good idea to have all the traffic lights on the main road in and out of town default to being on red, only changing to green when a car came along and triggered the sensor (instead of defaulting to green and switching to red when traffic from side lanes wanted to get out).

Not a problem during the day time as the constant traffic keeps the lights green most of the time. But at 11.00pm at night, when there's not a car to be seen anywhere, you'll be sitting at the lights a hell of a long time because they simply don't register the presence of cyclists and i'm buggered if i'm going to sit there for 30 minutes for a car to come along and change them.

Doesn't help that the council also recently removed all the roundabouts along the route to replace them with traffic lights that are supposed to make things flow better (it doesn't).

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bails87
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby bails87 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 22:53 pm

supersonic wrote:No wonder drivers have a bad image of cyclists. If a car was to do it there would be an uproar.

I'm sorry Super, but that's absolute rubbish. Go to any busy junction (round here anyway) and within one light cycle you'll see a car drive through a red light when he/she could have easily stopped. And probably a couple on every amber too. As for the number of drivers speeding or talking on phones, texting, using computers, reading books or newspapers, or maps, or having a shave(!), as for passing cyclists too close.....drivers break the law all the time, it's just accepted. Going to welshkev's story above, when did you last see a driver attack another driver because they were using their mobile, or because they'd driven into an ASL on a red light?

That said, don't RLJ, it's stupid. I don't see a huge number of cyclists around here, most things that I see that they've done wrong are matters of stupidity rather than deliberate law-breaking. So riding down the left of big vehicles, they just followed the cycle-lane, not knowing that it might kill them. Or morons with no lights. But I've been nearly wiped out on a number of occasions (in the car and on the bike) when I've stopped at a red/amber light and the car behind me has accelerated to get through the junction.

If no cyclists RLJed then we'd get abuse for not paying road tax (oddly enough, the drivers who shout this don't ever shout the same abuse at disabled drivers or the police :s ), and if we did that and all had insurance then we'd get abuse for simply being in the way.

A report from the Transport Research Laboratory and University of Strathclyde a few years ago led by Lynn Basford suggested that there’s some classic social psychology at work here – cyclists represent an outgroup such that the usual outgroup effects are seen, particularly overgeneralisation of negative behaviour and attributes – ‘They all ride through red lights all the time’. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that something of this sort is going on.

“However, there has to be more to it than just this. For a long time I wondered if the outgroup status of cyclists was compounded by two other known social psychological factors: norms and majority vs. minority groups. Not only are cyclists an outgroup, they’re also a minority outgroup. Moreover, they are engaging in an activity that is deemed slightly inappropriate in a culture that views driving as normative and desirable and, arguably, views cycling as anti- conventional and possibly even infantile.

“But even adding these factors into the mix does not explain all the anger that cyclists experience. It’s easy to identify other minority outgroups whose behaviour similarly challenges social norms but who do not get verbally and physically attacked like cyclists do: vegetarians, for example. So there’s clearly one or more important variables that we’ve not identified yet. Any social psychologists looking for a challenge are very welcome to wade into this.”

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supersonic
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby supersonic » Wed Nov 21, 2012 00:27 am

What's rubbish? Drivers having a bad image of cyclists because of RLJing? They do. A car jumping a red light causing an uproar? Happens far, far less, but when it does people are quick on it on the forums. At least 'around here'.

I can't remember the last time I saw a car jump a red light. I can remember dozens of cyclists. And no, texting etc is not accepted either, that is absurd - and does in no way condone how a cyclist may operate.

Fact is the cyclists which jump red lights are plain stupid. Many cyclists seem to think it is acceptable, even a bit funny, daring or whatever, but it is idiotic, breaks the law and reinforces the image of cyclists as a whole. Cars do it and cyclists kick off alarmingly. That is my point.

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bails87
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby bails87 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 08:43 am

supersonic wrote:What's rubbish? Drivers having a bad image of cyclists because of RLJing? They do.

I know, or at least it's an excuse, I wasn't arguing with that
A car jumping a red light causing an uproar? Happens far, far less, but when it does people are quick on it on the forums. At least 'around here'.

I can't remember the last time I saw a car jump a red light. I can remember dozens of cyclists.

Like I said, there simply aren't many cyclists around here, and my commute is pretty rural, so I simply don't see many lights for them to jump. The bits of road that do have lights are so hostile (I tried it once) that no-one rides a bike on them. I seem to remember a tfl survey that found that there was a similar rate of RLJing drivers as RLJing cyclists, even in that London, I'll try to find it.

I was on one of them the other week actually, in traffic in the car, doing 25-30mph approaching a traffic light at a big crossroads. The cars were pretty well matched up in pairs (I was in lane 2 and next to a car in lane 1, same for the several cars in front of me, all doing the same speed). The lights changed to amber, one car in each lane went through, but they probably didn't have time to safely stop so that's fine. Then the second car and third cars in the lane next to me came to a gentle stop at the red light, while the two cars next to them, in my lane, just carried on through the junction. I slowed down quite gently, as I now had extra space because the cars in front had amber gambled/ RLJed, and as I did the bloke in the crappy fiesta behind me must have just been watching the lights and not me because he accelerated, expecting me to jump the lights as well. He then slammed the brakes on and stopped a couple of cms from the back of my car. If he was on a bike he'd have been able to go around me and RLJ, but cars generally have to stop when the one in front of them does.

And no, texting etc is not accepted either, that is absurd - and does in no way condone how a cyclist may operate.

It wasn't a 'they break the law so I can too' type of thing, I was just saying that it's pretty widely ignored from what I've seen. It's rare that I drive anywhere and don't see several drivers phoning or texting.

Fact is the cyclists which jump red lights are plain stupid. Many cyclists seem to think it is acceptable, even a bit funny, daring or whatever, but it is idiotic, breaks the law and reinforces the image of cyclists as a whole. Cars do it and cyclists kick off alarmingly. That is my point.

And the bit in bold can't be said about many drivers who break the speed limit?

Not that I disagree with it. RLJers (bybike or car)are tw*ts. Just like all the other law breakers on the road. It shouldn't be cyclists vs cars it should be b3llends vs people who pay attention and obey the law.
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njee20
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby njee20 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 09:22 am

I seem to remember a tfl survey that found that there was a similar rate of RLJing drivers as RLJing cyclists, even in that London, I'll try to find it.


The trouble was that the figures were drivers caught on camera vs cyclists physically apprehended by a watching police officer - ie far fewer.

Yes cars RLJ, but it's generally accelerating through an amber and catching red by a second or so, plenty of cyclists (and I mean plenty in London) simply bimble through the lights whether they've been red for 1 second or 20. That enrages car drivers and we get tarred with that brush.

It's a retarded thing to do, I fully support the police fining people for doing it, and have little sympathy for riders injured doing it.

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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby Concorde » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:41 am

You're on a road therefore obey the rules of said road! The ones that drive on the road then mount the pavement at lights go through then go back on to the road the otherside wind me up too, they're technically not doing anything illegal but it shows their mentality... the **** mentality!

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stubs
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby stubs » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:19 am

I see plenty of red light jumping cars and vans round my way. Not so many cyclists do it simply because natural selection soon gets rid of the RLJ cyclists. I do find that cyclists in major towns and cities are there own worst enemies and last time I was in London I nearly got flattened by a goatee beard wearing fool who was blasting down a pedestrians only path.

How it can work can be seen in the Netherlands cycles rule and cars give way to you there are cycling paths everywhere joining up towns. Also you will see some of the fittest babes in the world pedalling along and happy to stop and chat to fat sweaty hungover Brits who are lost.
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Daz555
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby Daz555 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:30 am

It is of course annoying that we have to slow down and stop for so many red lights - it is no effort for a car driver to stop and start in contrast.

I'd like to see one change to our traffic light rules - namley that you can turn left at a red light if it is safe to do so. They use this system in some US states (right turn for them of course).
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njee20
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby njee20 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:04 pm

Yep, I do agree with the left turn on red, and it works (fairly) well in the US, but it's not up to cyclists to make that decision IMO.

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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby Chunkers1980 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:26 pm

If only common sense was er..... Common.

My view is cars are killing machines, rules are there for good reason.

If common sense was universal, bikes could do as they please, it is just it's not.

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njee20
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby njee20 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:27 pm

If common sense was universal, everyone could do as they please, it is just it's not.


FTFY.

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anton1r
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby anton1r » Wed Nov 21, 2012 15:42 pm

alfablue wrote:
anton1r wrote:
Newfish wrote:....
The other day I was shouted at for jumping a red light. Now I am fully aware that we should adhere to the rules of the road, however as a cyclist we can usually sit further forward than cars at lights and see when they are going to change before car drivers, so I personally don't see any problem with jumping the light if it is going to change anyhow and being out of the way for when the cars move off.


It's wrong but I go on amber too, never had any abuse for it but I reckon drivers are just happy to have you out the way. Though it does depends how early you jump.


Incredibly stupid! Have you ever considered that drivers / cyclists at the other set of lights may be taking similar risks by failing to stop on amber (or red)? At some point you will collide with a similarly stupid road user :?

Where I live its not even safe to go on green because of RLJers, both two and four wheeled!!!! :evil:


Hmm... maybe i'll start writing my will now. :roll:
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alfablue
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby alfablue » Wed Nov 21, 2012 16:04 pm

Yes, you should.

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anton1r
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby anton1r » Wed Nov 21, 2012 22:12 pm

Glad we agree on that. Now where was this thread going before that little interlude...

Ahh yes using common sense...
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby alfablue » Thu Nov 22, 2012 06:31 am

anton1r wrote:Ahh yes using common sense...
Common sense, fantastic:
1) People who run red lights or amber lights risk injuring themselves or others (they may then call these events "accidents" :roll: ). 4% of pedestrian injuries are caused by cyclists jumping red lights (CTC).
2) Red light jumping fosters a "them and us" mentality (AA), and is frequently cited by drivers as their overriding perception of cyclists.
Common sense conclusion, RLJ'ing is dangerous and gives motorists a reason to disrespect cyclists.

Of course, you will be so skilled that you will never make a mistake that will lead to collision (I have met people such as this in the A&E dept), and of course you may not give a t*ss about what motorists think of cyclists (the many of us who get abute and hostile driving around us because we are tarred with the RLJer brush reserve the right to think otherwise).

Common sense . . . yeah.
Last edited by alfablue on Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Gazlar
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby Gazlar » Thu Nov 22, 2012 09:53 am

One of my big beefs with other cyclists is the really right squeeze down the nearside of traffic to get to that front at lights, fine if there's plenty if room but when your constantly clipping the kerb, just wait in the traffic or get of and push on the pavement. This also goes for undertaking on tight main roads as many are here in Cardiff because of parking provision (city road my main target)mthe road widens and narrows and many times I've had cyclists try to undertake at a point it narrows and there is just nowhere to the right to move over to when the roads are busy.

With regards to lights I always stop, if they are taking ages to change because of a timer or sensor then I hop off and push as a pedestrian crossing the road would cross. Especially as I trend to commute at 4 in the morning or least thing at night.
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supersonic
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby supersonic » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:48 pm

I never undertake, very easy to get stuck. At junctions cyclists should place themselves in the middle of the road and make themselves seen.

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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby Gazlar » Thu Nov 22, 2012 17:56 pm

supersonic wrote:I never undertake, very easy to get stuck. At junctions cyclists should place themselves in the middle of the road and make themselves seen.


Exactly this. If the highway code states that its not safe for a car to undertake another one then you really are taking a helluva chance on a bike. I think for the moderate majority we have the foresight of being in both driver and rider categories. I know I've had as many near misses with bad cyclists in my car as I've had on my bike with bad drivers.
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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby alfablue » Thu Nov 22, 2012 18:42 pm

I agree, but in a way, cycle lanes and ASL's encourage undertaking. I often spurn them and wait in primary behind a car. Maybe this is why semi-segregated cycle infrastructure is the worst of the three options (full integration, or total segregation).

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Re: Red lights and other traffic stuff.

Postby njee20 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 09:27 am

Mmmm, that's certainly a huge problem with all cycle lanes. I use Cycle Superhighway 7 whenever I ride into London, and whilst I actually think it's very good having to ride up the left of 7 miles of stationary traffic leaves plenty of opportunities for folk to nip into side roads without seeing you. The volume of cyclists helps, as does a dose of common sense, but even so, not ideal.

That said, not sure I'd want a cycle path in the middle of the road!


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