100 points for 2nd cat ?

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Tom Butcher
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:59 am

Not sure if the proposals are on the internet anywhere David - I got it as a pdf with an email.
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DavidJB
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby DavidJB » Wed Nov 14, 2012 20:24 pm

Tom Butcher wrote:Not sure if the proposals are on the internet anywhere David - I got it as a pdf with an email.


Ok, well lets hope its poo pooed.

PeterHitt
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby PeterHitt » Wed Nov 21, 2012 23:05 pm

Maybe 100 points is a good idea spread over 2 seasons? 100 points in a season is mental at 3rd Cat level!

okgo
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby okgo » Wed Nov 21, 2012 23:24 pm

Why is it mental? I did it, and I didn't really ever race midweek, and I stopped in September whereas you could race for nearly 12 months now!
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

Tom Dean
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Dean » Thu Nov 22, 2012 08:45 am

You did start at the beginning of December though! There aren't so many opportunities to race in most parts of the country.

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BigMat
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby BigMat » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:45 am

okgo wrote:Why is it mental? I did it, and I didn't really ever race midweek, and I stopped in September whereas you could race for nearly 12 months now!


How did you get 100 points in a season at 3rd cat? Maybe you got 100 points in a season including 40 at 3rd cat - is that what you mean? The additional points presumably were 10 at 4th cat and then the rest at 2nd cat, where there tend to be more points available (although arguably still harder to come by). Plus you were racing most weekends I imagine, which isn't really an option for a lot of people. I average a race a month and that's the best I can do sadly. I guess it'd be fair to argue that if I want to race at a higher category I need to be racing more, but I still think the balance is wrong saying 100 points for 2nd cat (although "mental" is maybe a bit extreme!)

okgo
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby okgo » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:09 pm

BigMat wrote:
okgo wrote:Why is it mental? I did it, and I didn't really ever race midweek, and I stopped in September whereas you could race for nearly 12 months now!


How did you get 100 points in a season at 3rd cat? Maybe you got 100 points in a season including 40 at 3rd cat - is that what you mean? The additional points presumably were 10 at 4th cat and then the rest at 2nd cat, where there tend to be more points available (although arguably still harder to come by). Plus you were racing most weekends I imagine, which isn't really an option for a lot of people. I average a race a month and that's the best I can do sadly. I guess it'd be fair to argue that if I want to race at a higher category I need to be racing more, but I still think the balance is wrong saying 100 points for 2nd cat (although "mental" is maybe a bit extreme!)


Yes I got 110 or so in a season as a 4th, 3rd, and 2nd.

No, you can race 2/3 races as a 3 and still score the bigger points.

Not most weekends, there was a stint where it was a few in a row, but compared to most I didn't race that much. Well the only way for most people to get to 1st cat is to race a lot, so I don't have a problem with people wanting to make 2nd having to get out and do a bit more racing, ultimately its a number, it doesn't change a lot (which is why many people are happy to sit in 2nd cat as nothing changes when you move up apart from getting a kicking from the 'pro's' week in week out as the higher end of our scene is not up to it) I don't expect.

As a 3rd you can race most things, and in your case you are going to score points in most 3rd only or 3/4 races as you're a strong rider, whereas if you did make 2nd one year you might find you don't score as often in 2/3's, which you find more enjoyable is down to opinion I guess.
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walsht1105
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby walsht1105 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 13:03 pm

okgo wrote:
BigMat wrote:
okgo wrote:Why is it mental? I did it, and I didn't really ever race midweek, and I stopped in September whereas you could race for nearly 12 months now!


How did you get 100 points in a season at 3rd cat? Maybe you got 100 points in a season including 40 at 3rd cat - is that what you mean? The additional points presumably were 10 at 4th cat and then the rest at 2nd cat, where there tend to be more points available (although arguably still harder to come by). Plus you were racing most weekends I imagine, which isn't really an option for a lot of people. I average a race a month and that's the best I can do sadly. I guess it'd be fair to argue that if I want to race at a higher category I need to be racing more, but I still think the balance is wrong saying 100 points for 2nd cat (although "mental" is maybe a bit extreme!)


Yes I got 110 or so in a season as a 4th, 3rd, and 2nd.

No, you can race 2/3 races as a 3 and still score the bigger points.

Not most weekends, there was a stint where it was a few in a row, but compared to most I didn't race that much. Well the only way for most people to get to 1st cat is to race a lot, so I don't have a problem with people wanting to make 2nd having to get out and do a bit more racing, ultimately its a number, it doesn't change a lot (which is why many people are happy to sit in 2nd cat as nothing changes when you move up apart from getting a kicking from the 'pro's' week in week out as the higher end of our scene is not up to it) I don't expect.

As a 3rd you can race most things, and in your case you are going to score points in most 3rd only or 3/4 races as you're a strong rider, whereas if you did make 2nd one year you might find you don't score as often in 2/3's, which you find more enjoyable is down to opinion I guess.


Out of interest, how many of your points came from Crits? You guys down south have your own set of problems I think, saw the result sheet for one of the winter series races down there, 5 started....

Getting 110 points in your first season is impressive btw

displacedaussie
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby displacedaussie » Thu Nov 22, 2012 13:07 pm

Looks like most of them came from road races: http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/points ... r=2012&d=4 (with a big chunk coming in the last three).

21 points in December 2011 as well!

walsht1105
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby walsht1105 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 13:27 pm

I added about 30 points from crits, remove those points and have the limit at 100 and you wouldn't be a 2nd cat, which is the category you should clearly be at. Impressive results BTW.

okgo
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby okgo » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:10 pm

No, but I would have raced more if I was only a few points short.

I suppose what I'm saying, just because you can't race that often I don't think the system needs to adapt to those few people. After all to get to 2nd cat level in another sport would mean you were training fairly regularly and competing much more often than you could in cycling (one per month would be easily do-able if you were a strong rider)
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

walsht1105
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby walsht1105 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:47 pm

I think its a case of different regions, different problems. But I don't think the system needs to adapt at all, unless its about splitting the points up. I have no problem with someone doing crits week in week out, moving to 2nd/1st and getting a kicking every week on the road.. That's their choice.. But there are genuinely people that have a good ability in crits/track but that doesn't translate over to the road for them, they move up a category in all three areas and want to try road racing at the same level - they can't.. It limits them. Splitting up the points would also show the genuine - 'shouldnt move up a category' cases from the 'doesnt want to move up even though is capable' cases.

I also think you under estimate your ability because I know I found it hard getting 40 points this season solely through road racing (partly because I over did it in winter and my head fell off in June!) but mainly because it's not easy to do (maybe that's because of the region I'm in (NW) or because I'm just not that good, I know the next level up is a big jump as well because I train with elites and 1st cats). You had a cracking set of results for your last few races and if you can replicate that you will have no problem getting 1st cat.

Tom Dean
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom Dean » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:50 pm

I'm still not quite sure what this proposal is meant to solve.

There will always be local differences in the spread of riders across the cats, the answer is for race organisers to put on races to reflect that, not for the national system to change to reflect the situation in one local area.

okgo
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby okgo » Thu Nov 22, 2012 14:56 pm

Agree with that, a lot of people argue that 1st cat is just a number people get to before going elite, but I think I could get to 1st, I know damn well (just from my numbers if anything) that I don't have what it takes to go and get regular results in Nat b's, so I would like to maybe see some more races for that level, 1/2/3 or something, otherwise for me (and I've been told other people have found this) it will literally just to say I did it, and I'd spend a season getting a kicking from the local pro tour teams that don't have anything better to do (for various reasons I'm sure).

Still there is always time trialing I suppose :D
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

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BigMat
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby BigMat » Thu Nov 22, 2012 15:16 pm

okgo wrote:Agree with that, a lot of people argue that 1st cat is just a number people get to before going elite, but I think I could get to 1st, I know damn well (just from my numbers if anything) that I don't have what it takes to go and get regular results in Nat b's, so I would like to maybe see some more races for that level, 1/2/3 or something, otherwise for me (and I've been told other people have found this) it will literally just to say I did it, and I'd spend a season getting a kicking from the local pro tour teams that don't have anything better to do (for various reasons I'm sure).

Still there is always time trialing I suppose :D


As a 1st you might get offered a semi-pro deal, giving you a chance to focus a lot more and really find out how good you are. I imagine that is the main appeal for a lot of people.

Based on your points this season you would be borderline 2/3 - I don't think that would reflect your ability so you are a case in point - 100 is just too high. Maybe 40 is too low, might need to be somewhere in between I guess.

By the way, the crits with 5 riders are the E/1/2s at the moment. I actually raced one as a 3/4 running concurrently - beat half the E/1/2 field and came 3rd in the 3/4 race but got less points than I would have done for coming last in the E/1/2 i.e. fewer points than people I beat in the same race. Now that really sucks!

maryka
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby maryka » Fri Nov 23, 2012 22:28 pm

Late to this thread, but I can answer the bit about that National C races. Yes that amendment to the rulebook was passed last year but the points band (band 4 I believe, so 15 pts for the win) was such a joke that nobody actually ended up putting on any National C races for fear that they wouldn't get enough riders. Because yes, even 1st cats chase points, though theoretically National C was created so they could race against each other and not have to race elites. But there you go.

The BC national AGM just happened last weekend, here's a copy of the agenda https://docs.google.com/open?id=11T4nJ2 ... _LJ9B3tt6N though obviously it's too late to do anything about it now.

BC has some useful publications on their website namely annual reports and past minutes of the national council.

Can I just add that anyone wanting to have a hand or at the very least make suggestions about how BC should be run, please get involved at your local council level. Even just attending your region's AGM will be eye-opening -- they generally happen in late September. I can say pretty unequivocally that most of the people making decisions at BC at both the regional and national level don't frequent this forum. :wink:

DavidJB
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby DavidJB » Sat Nov 24, 2012 13:14 pm

maryka wrote:Late to this thread, but I can answer the bit about that National C races. Yes that amendment to the rulebook was passed last year but the points band (band 4 I believe, so 15 pts for the win) was such a joke that nobody actually ended up putting on any National C races for fear that they wouldn't get enough riders. Because yes, even 1st cats chase points, though theoretically National C was created so they could race against each other and not have to race elites. But there you go.

The BC national AGM just happened last weekend, here's a copy of the agenda https://docs.google.com/open?id=11T4nJ2 ... _LJ9B3tt6N though obviously it's too late to do anything about it now.

BC has some useful publications on their website namely annual reports and past minutes of the national council.

Can I just add that anyone wanting to have a hand or at the very least make suggestions about how BC should be run, please get involved at your local council level. Even just attending your region's AGM will be eye-opening -- they generally happen in late September. I can say pretty unequivocally that most of the people making decisions at BC at both the regional and national level don't frequent this forum. :wink:


So has this all been ratified now? If it has it's nothing short of a disaster for the amateur scene.

maryka
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby maryka » Sat Nov 24, 2012 14:57 pm

DavidJB wrote:So has this all been ratified now? If it has it's nothing short of a disaster for the amateur scene.

No idea but I'm fairly sure it hasn't been as I really doubt the motion for 100 points etc. passed at the National Council. Sadly the minutes probably won't be available til next autumn so the full story won't come out. But you could always call BC and ask what decisions were ratified for 2013 and what rule changes are going to happen.

Tom_UK
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Re: 100 points for 2nd cat ?

Postby Tom_UK » Tue Nov 27, 2012 17:14 pm

I emailed BC and they replied with this

"The threshold for increasing the points to gain 2nd cat was rejected at National council so there will be no increase in the 40 points needed in the near future"


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