Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Talk about your races - Time Trials, Road Races or Cyclocross.
Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 14:27 pm

Hi there,
I will be doing my first UK road race at Hillingdon tomorrow. I would like to advance to 3rd as quickly as possible to be able to race in the BUCS Road Race - only reason I'm starting to race here anyway.
I have done a fair bit of racing in Germany; mainly long distance and very mountainous though. I have a decent acceleration but not the greatest sprint on a flat.
I have been riding with quite a few 2nd and 3rd cats here in the UK and I think ability/speed wise I am somewhere in between.
As at Hillingdon the 3rd cats are starting 1min after 4ths I was wondering if it was a feasible strategy just to latch on to the 3rds? Can't be that difficult to keep their pace?
Any tips as to how to avoid a bunch sprint are appreciated. I'm assuming as like anywhere else in the lowest category, people don't know how to work in a break...
Cheers

Tom Dean
Posts: 1650
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 08:08 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Tom Dean » Fri Nov 23, 2012 14:31 pm

You are not allowed to get in the 3rd cat bunch.

JamesFree
Posts: 642
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:06 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby JamesFree » Fri Nov 23, 2012 14:37 pm

Never seen anyone attempt to work with each other in the 4ths, so just hold out the sprint or maybe go with a lap to go

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 14:46 pm

Tom Dean wrote:You are not allowed to get in the 3rd cat bunch.


That makes a lot more sense, thank you.

How is that rule enforced though? What are you supposed to do if the 3rds are in front of you and you're catching up with them while on a break?
But I guess if it's not allowed and nobody is doing it, I won't either.

jibberjim
Posts: 2806
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 20:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby jibberjim » Fri Nov 23, 2012 15:03 pm

If you're catching them you can pass - they should let you through... The commissaires should shout at them too.

Given that you have 1 race to get your 10 points to move up (the points are reset on Dec 1) you need to win. Without a sprint your only chance is to get away. For 3/4 at Hillingdon I think the best bet to get a break is to get to the front of the bunch and slow the race down - people eventually get bored and attack. Do that a few times and then bridge up to the break and then you'll have to attack the break.

I'd just try and find the strong guys (Paul in Kingston Wheelers kit is strong and won't need the win to move up) and talk as early as you can - you may well need to wait until December though, but identify those guys who don't want a sprint as early as possible. If the race is hard enough though, you really don't need any sprint to score points.
Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/

Rodrego Hernandez
Posts: 1150
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 08:56 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Rodrego Hernandez » Fri Nov 23, 2012 15:08 pm

jibberjim wrote:If you're catching them you can pass - they should let you through... The commissaires should shout at them too.

Given that you have 1 race to get your 10 points to move up (the points are reset on Dec 1) you need to win. Without a sprint your only chance is to get away. For 3/4 at Hillingdon I think the best bet to get a break is to get to the front of the bunch and slow the race down - people eventually get bored and attack. Do that a few times and then bridge up to the break and then you'll have to attack the break.

I'd just try and find the strong guys (Paul in Kingston Wheelers kit is strong and won't need the win to move up) and talk as early as you can - you may well need to wait until December though, but identify those guys who don't want a sprint as early as possible. If the race is hard enough though, you really don't need any sprint to score points.


I think points attained now carry over into 2013s total.

Best advice is to go with half a lap to go, any sooner than that and the strong 4th cat bunch engines will drag you back.

okgo
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 14:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby okgo » Fri Nov 23, 2012 16:16 pm

They're not I don't think, that is why they are called points grabbers...

Half a lap to go you will be going at well over 25 mph, you have to be pretty strong to be able to go away on your own from that. My advice would be to go earlier than that, or do what Jim said. It really is a circuit where having a sprint really helps (at the lower levels, I understand that breaks are the order of the day for the elite race there).
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 16:39 pm

Well, higher cat races (apart from Elite maybe) are usually elimination races (at least on the continent) but that's not of any concern to me right now.

Can anyone quote a source on whether the points carry over or when they are reset?

My problem is that I'm 6'1" at 70 kg, so definitely not built for flats. I can make a decent effort for around 3-4min but on my own against a chasing field I doubt I can stay up front. My max effort is around 20W/kg but on the flat the total of 1400W isn't that great.
Also I love what I like to call "lactate sprints", ie 3-5% gradient towards the finish and a 30-60s sprint - but I won't get that at Hillingdon.

Is there going to be anything at Hog Hill this winter?

okgo
Posts: 3705
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 14:13 pm
Contact:

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby okgo » Fri Nov 23, 2012 16:45 pm

1400w will win pretty much all 3/4 crits, that is a pretty decent sprint if you can hold it for a few seconds?

Yes, lactate sprints are (if that is the term) are my strong point too, and that is how I got our of 4th cat at Hillingdon.
Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 16:54 pm

Okay, I'll go for an early sprint then probably. Unless I can chat up Paul and convince him to get on a break a couple of laps before the finish.

I looked at the Rules&Regulations of BC and it says 10 points have to be obtained in one season. So I'm assuming points will be reset on 1st January as they don't state any other definition for "season".

displacedaussie
Posts: 352
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 16:41 pm

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby displacedaussie » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:01 pm

20 watts/kg (if you can hold it for 5 seconds) puts you pretty high up the Watts table. Certainly a little bit above Cat 4 level. ;)

http://www.truesport.com/Bike/2007/articles/druber/druber15.html

I won 4 cat 3/4 sprints this year and I'm sure I was nowhere near 1400 watts.

Based on your experience and apparent strength, just sit in as long as you can and go for it. I'm a big fan of those "lactate sprints" too in my training, and being able to hold them for 30-60 seconds already gives you a big advantage over a lot of 3rd and 4th cats, many of whom in my experience aren't able to hold a sprint for 20 seconds.

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:08 pm

Well for 5 seconds it might be 1200-1300W rather than 1400W to be honest. But watts-wise I would fit in low Cat2, I guess. Have to get the points first, though. :)
In Germany we only have KT/A/B/C (compare to E/1/2/3) and C is already very competitive and anything that ends in a bunch sprint has at least five 80kg natural sprinters in it. Luckily bunch sprints are quite rare :P
So I wasn't sure what to expect in Cat 4.

ozzzyosborn206
Posts: 1256
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 17:17 pm

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby ozzzyosborn206 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:17 pm

I don't have a power meter but from what i have heard people say, 1400W sprint should wee-wee all over a 4th cat bunch sprint, if you can do that after an hours race? best and safest bet is to move near the front for the last few laps as it gets hectic and nervous then on the horse shoes bend move forward kick hard out that corner and try solo it past the club house then around the last corner, if its a tailwind this should be pretty doable, if it is a head wind or big cross then sit in aslong as you can and sprint up the sheltered side

User avatar
BigMat
Posts: 4637
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 13:47 pm

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby BigMat » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:22 pm

Hog Hill is where its at for "lactate" sprint finishes :) - maybe not quite 60 seconds, but long enough to get found out if you go too early (my attempt to attack at the bell resulted in a horrible overhaul within sight of the line - its all a learning process, right?!). I have won sprints there but never for the win - breaks do get away fairly often. Winter series starts in the New Year - check out "events" on British Cycling website but I think the first one is on 12 January.

Points run to end of November I think, so as of 1 Dec it all starts again. Still, you get 10 points this month you're a 3rd cat, you get 10 points next month you're a 3rd cat, so not much difference (unless you come 2nd this month, in which case you'll have to start all over again).

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:26 pm

Well, it would certainly be nice to win tomorrow, but I won't expect it. It's been a while since my last crit and it's my first time at Hillingdon. If the December points count for 2013 already, that's actually good news. If I don't get enough before Christmas I can get the remaining ones at Hog Hill.

Thanks for all the advice!

Edit: Can't find any events at Hog Hill on britishcycling.org.uk... :(
Edit2: Nevermind, didn't realise it is called Redbridge Cycling Centre. :)

jibberjim
Posts: 2806
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 20:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby jibberjim » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:41 pm

So looking in detail in the rule books we actually believe points expire on December 31st. However, the December Hillingdon and Hog Hill Series are part of the 2013 racing year, not the 2012 racing year, so the points earnt in it do not count to your 2012 racing points - so even if you have 9 before the race scoring another won't increase your 2012 points total, so your 9 are effectively useless.

I was 4th in the 4th cats at hillingdon a few years back without breaking 800watts for 1 second (I broke 1200 a number of times in the race trying to get away)... There are plenty of 4th cats with more than 1400watt sprint - remember sub 1 minute power is pretty untrainable compared to anything longer so you generally have it no matter how good you are. The difference is in 4th cat racing so many of them will be too knackered to put it out. It's why 4th cats should never ever train their sprint power (their technique for sure) as it's not going to give them any returns compared to aerobic training.
Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:47 pm

Well, despite suboptimal form at the moment, threshold-wise 4th cat should not be a problem.

Regarding points: So they are reset on 1st Jan but effectively on 1st Dec, since after 1st Dec there are no more points to get and the points that I get in December will count for 2013, right?

jibberjim
Posts: 2806
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 20:46 pm
Contact:

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby jibberjim » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:51 pm

Setarkos wrote:Well, despite suboptimal form at the moment, threshold-wise 4th cat should not be a problem.


At hillingdon if you're experienced, 2.5 w/kg should be plenty to stay in the bunch (not as easy as Goodwood when there's a giant field when I know a low 50's kg woman stayed in the 3rds men with just over 100watts - btw if you had a foreign licence at any sort of level you probably could've come in straight to 3rd when you called up BC to get your licence?

Setarkos wrote:Regarding points: So they are reset on 1st Jan but effectively on 1st Dec, since after 1st Dec there are no more points to get and the points that I get in December will count for 2013, right?


That's my understanding yes.
Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/

Setarkos
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 09:39 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby Setarkos » Fri Nov 23, 2012 17:53 pm

jibberjim wrote:btw if you had a foreign licence at any sort of level you probably could've come in straight to 3rd when you called up BC to get your licence?


Thanks, I'll send them an email.
Last edited by Setarkos on Sat Apr 20, 2013 16:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

DavidJB
Posts: 1719
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 07:38 am

Re: Tactic for Hillingdon 4th Cat

Postby DavidJB » Fri Nov 23, 2012 18:18 pm

1400watts is elite bunch sprinting level...me thinks you're on a porky.


Return to “Amateur Race”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest