Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

General bike chat that does not fit elsewhere

If you had £3000 to spend on a bike which option would you prefer?

Cervelo R5
34
41%
Cannondale Supersix
19
23%
Custom Frame
15
18%
None of the above - You can do better than the above!
13
16%
None of the above - You are wasting your money!
2
2%
 
Total votes: 83

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NapoleonD
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby NapoleonD » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:38 pm

No need to apologise. You're entitled to your opinion based on no information about me whatsoever other than 1 parameter.
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Legend_UK
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 15:01 pm

NapoleonD wrote:No need to apologise. You're entitled to your opinion based on no information about me whatsoever other than 1 parameter.


One parameter it maybe, but it is the most important one! bit like building your house on doggy foundations

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NapoleonD
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby NapoleonD » Sun Nov 25, 2012 17:53 pm

Doggy?

So, based on my saddle setback but not knowing my body dimensions/femur length etc you know it's wrong? How tall am I? How long are my femurs?
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JGSI
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby JGSI » Sun Nov 25, 2012 18:40 pm

NapoleonD wrote:Doggy?

So, based on my saddle setback but not knowing my body dimensions/femur length etc you know it's wrong? How tall am I? How long are my femurs?


Who is this guy, Nap?
Read back a bit , seems to know his onions... derrrr :lol:

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 18:59 pm

NapoleonD wrote:Doggy?

So, based on my saddle setback but not knowing my body dimensions/femur length etc you know it's wrong? How tall am I? How long are my femurs?


Not talking about your morphology here, do not need to know this info, we are speaking about your bike set up, you stated

"I have a saddle set back of a hefty 12.5cm, my saddle is rammed right back on a set back post."

This is not correct. Either your position is wrong or your frame is suitable for you.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Sun Nov 25, 2012 18:59 pm

Legend_UK wrote:What you need to visualise here is the axis of the seat tube in relation to the wheelbase of the bike, this then determines the weight distribution of the rider relative to the front and rear wheels. All of which greatly affects the way the bike rides. Yes when designing a true custom frame you need to take into account not only the riders morphology, also their choice of saddle and seat pin. There are then various issues which you also need to take into account with regards saddle position in relation to the seat pin clamp, again there are certain best practices which should be followed here.


I don't get this. Isn't it the position of the saddle (rather than the seat tube) in relation to the other contact points and the wheels that affect weight distribution. Can you tell me where the seat tube axis is on a bike like this?

Image

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:04 pm

Legend_UK wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:No need to apologise. You're entitled to your opinion based on no information about me whatsoever other than 1 parameter.


One parameter it maybe, but it is the most important one! bit like building your house on doggy foundations


Is one any more important than any other? If your reach from saddle to handlebars is too big, you will edge forward on the saddle, changing the relationship between the saddle and bottom bracket.

And I think what you have done with NapD's information is like reading the first chapter of a book and then saying you know the full story. It might very well be that he has the wrong setup, but you really need more information before jumping to the conclusion that it's wrong.

gloomyandy
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby gloomyandy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:13 pm

greasedscotsman wrote:
I don't get this. Isn't it the position of the saddle (rather than the seat tube) in relation to the other contact points and the wheels that affect weight distribution. Can you tell me where the seat tube axis is on a bike like this?

Image


No I don't get it either. I agree that the important thing from a weight distribution point of view is the saddle position (and probably the weight distribution of your body), not the seat post or the position of the clamp. Now it may be true that if the saddle position you end up with is a long way away from the position envisioned by the designer of the bike (but I suspect a lot more than 1cm), then things may not be as good as they could be. But I doubt very much if things are this critical even on a Legend bike...

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:29 pm

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:What you need to visualise here is the axis of the seat tube in relation to the wheelbase of the bike, this then determines the weight distribution of the rider relative to the front and rear wheels. All of which greatly affects the way the bike rides. Yes when designing a true custom frame you need to take into account not only the riders morphology, also their choice of saddle and seat pin. There are then various issues which you also need to take into account with regards saddle position in relation to the seat pin clamp, again there are certain best practices which should be followed here.


I don't get this. Isn't it the position of the saddle (rather than the seat tube) in relation to the other contact points and the wheels that affect weight distribution. Can you tell me where the seat tube axis is on a bike like this?

Image


No the saddle position is the RESULT of the correct frame design, not the other way around, having the saddle pushed right back hard on the rails is a sign that the frame design OR the overall position is wrong

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:35 pm

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:No need to apologise. You're entitled to your opinion based on no information about me whatsoever other than 1 parameter.


One parameter it maybe, but it is the most important one! bit like building your house on doggy foundations


Is one any more important than any other? If your reach from saddle to handlebars is too big, you will edge forward on the saddle, changing the relationship between the saddle and bottom bracket.

And I think what you have done with NapD's information is like reading the first chapter of a book and then saying you know the full story. It might very well be that he has the wrong setup, but you really need more information before jumping to the conclusion that it's wrong.


Yes all measurements / positions are important, they are also very much inter-connected. However in terms of "work flow" the final saddle "set up / position" is the most important area of frame design and overall bike fitting.

No I do not need more information, we are not speaking about anything more than his saddle set up. Of course to do a full bike fit/evaluation I would need to see him and his bike.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:42 pm

gloomyandy wrote:
greasedscotsman wrote:
I don't get this. Isn't it the position of the saddle (rather than the seat tube) in relation to the other contact points and the wheels that affect weight distribution. Can you tell me where the seat tube axis is on a bike like this?

Image


No I don't get it either. I agree that the important thing from a weight distribution point of view is the saddle position (and probably the weight distribution of your body), not the seat post or the position of the clamp. Now it may be true that if the saddle position you end up with is a long way away from the position envisioned by the designer of the bike (but I suspect a lot more than 1cm), then things may not be as good as they could be. But I doubt very much if things are this critical even on a Legend bike...


Millimetres count let alone cm's it does make a big difference.

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:43 pm

Legend_UK wrote:No the saddle position is the RESULT of the correct frame design, not the other way around, having the saddle pushed right back hard on the rails is a sign that the frame design OR the overall position is wrong


Really confused now. When a customer comes to see you, do you not measure them in some way that determines where their contact points should be, place the wheels accordingly and once that is done then you can work out the dimensions of the frame? How do you start with the frame?

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greasedscotsman
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby greasedscotsman » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:51 pm

Legend_UK wrote:No the saddle position is the RESULT of the correct frame design, not the other way around, having the saddle pushed right back hard on the rails is a sign that the frame design OR the overall position is wrong


OK, put it another way. Take this bike...

Image

Lets assume it perfectly setup for me, but I swap out the seatpost for an inline one, I keep the saddle at exactly the same height from the BB and the same distace from the bars. The clamp will not be in the middle of the rails, but you are saying that the frame design is now somehow wrong or there is something wrong with the overall position. I don't get it!
Last edited by greasedscotsman on Sun Nov 25, 2012 21:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

gloomyandy
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby gloomyandy » Sun Nov 25, 2012 19:56 pm

Legend_UK wrote:
Millimetres count let alone cm's it does make a big difference.


Millimetres may count in terms of the saddle position but I don't see how they count at all in terms of the position of the seat clamp. So are you saying that if I get a Legend bike built for me originally with a seat post that has say a 5cm set back, and then later swap it for one with a 4cm set back (and move the saddle to maintain exactly the same saddle position relative to the wheels and bottom bracket), that I now have the wrong geometry of Legend frame, because my seat clamp will now be 1cm away from the ideal?

Edit: looking at the post above it seems we both share the same doubts!

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NapoleonD
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby NapoleonD » Sun Nov 25, 2012 21:27 pm

Legend_UK wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:Doggy?

So, based on my saddle setback but not knowing my body dimensions/femur length etc you know it's wrong? How tall am I? How long are my femurs?


Not talking about your morphology here, do not need to know this info, we are speaking about your bike set up, you stated

"I have a saddle set back of a hefty 12.5cm, my saddle is rammed right back on a set back post."

This is not correct. Either your position is wrong or your frame is suitable for you.


So, my saddle is pushed back 1.5cm from centre as it has short range of movement. I now need, according to you, due to that 5mm, a custom geometry frame? Oh ok. I'll start saving.
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Velonutter » Sun Nov 25, 2012 23:24 pm

Lads, I have found this thread really interesting, just a few observations: -

1. When I had my bike fit with Adrian Timmis he made a big thing of having the saddle in the right position before he started anything else, there must be some truth in the importance of starting at that point first.

2. When I went to Adrian, I went with my old Look 585, he knew that I was changing it and advised on the correct C59 based on my measurements, again stating that it all starts from the saddle.

3. I'm fairly convinced that if Adrian was designing frames for all of us, that it would not be a matter of making a frame fit, but designing it to optimally fit our bodies, but it's like all fitters, unless it is so obvious that your current bike is incorrect, then he will try and make the bike fit.

4. Just one other observation in my business I don't give everyone the answers, I provide the solution, otherwise I might as well tell everyone how to achieve the service I provide and retire, so you can hardly expect Legend_UK to give away all his tricks and skills!

JMHO, no offence meant to anyone.

Fevmeister
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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Fevmeister » Mon Nov 26, 2012 01:18 am

If you're after a new r5 then you're looking at more than 3 grand if you want a half decent build

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Mon Nov 26, 2012 08:06 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:No the saddle position is the RESULT of the correct frame design, not the other way around, having the saddle pushed right back hard on the rails is a sign that the frame design OR the overall position is wrong


Really confused now. When a customer comes to see you, do you not measure them in some way that determines where their contact points should be, place the wheels accordingly and once that is done then you can work out the dimensions of the frame? How do you start with the frame?


We start with the rider measurements, which in turn allow us to design the riders frame, thereafter we recommend that they complete the process with the final bike fit [not obligatory] on their finished frame/bike. In a full fitting session carried out in a suitably equipped bike fitting studio we are able to simulate the final frame/bike using a virtual bike/fitting jig.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Mon Nov 26, 2012 08:12 am

greasedscotsman wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:No the saddle position is the RESULT of the correct frame design, not the other way around, having the saddle pushed right back hard on the rails is a sign that the frame design OR the overall position is wrong


OK, put it another way. Take this bike...

Image

Lets assume it perfectly setup for me, but I swap out the seatpost for an inline one, I keep the saddle at exactly the same height from the BB and the same distace from the bars. The clamp will not be in the middle of the rails, but you are saying that the frame design is now somehow wrong or there is something wrong with the overall position. I don't get it!


The issue is every aspect of the frame design and fit is linked, make one adjustment and everything else changes, that why everything is so complicated and difficult to explain in writing on a forum. You need to come for a fitting and see for yourself.

If the seat angle of your frame is not correct then yes you can use seat pins with different degree's of set back to allow you to set up the saddle correctly.

You do not want the saddle pushed back on its rails as you run the risk of not only braking the saddle rails but also the seat pin clamping system, something we have seen frequently in such cases.

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Re: Cervelo R5 v Cannondale Supersix evo v Custom Frame

Postby Legend_UK » Mon Nov 26, 2012 08:16 am

gloomyandy wrote:
Legend_UK wrote:
Millimetres count let alone cm's it does make a big difference.


Millimetres may count in terms of the saddle position but I don't see how they count at all in terms of the position of the seat clamp. So are you saying that if I get a Legend bike built for me originally with a seat post that has say a 5cm set back, and then later swap it for one with a 4cm set back (and move the saddle to maintain exactly the same saddle position relative to the wheels and bottom bracket), that I now have the wrong geometry of Legend frame, because my seat clamp will now be 1cm away from the ideal?

Edit: looking at the post above it seems we both share the same doubts!


To build your bike to perfection we would need to know what seat pin you would use, and have you in for a full fit.


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