The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

The place for more serious off topic questions, light hearted banter and friendly chat.
User avatar
Pinno
Posts: 18619
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 15:37 pm
Contact:

The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Pinno » Tue Nov 27, 2012 14:34 pm

So, the Chancelor has plans to cut out some of the loopholes of tax evasion with an impending bill. Those non-Doms and those Coys that are evading tax by shifting their head office to Lithuania, but how far will it go ?
Will it actually deliver what it promises or is it a method of keeping the electorate happy with a namby pamby bill that doesn't really cut the mustard ?
"It's really tough to make a living, but a man's just gotta try" Disgruntledgoat - who owe's me 10 Goat Bucks

S - The womens Brazilian beach volleyball team
W - Wiggle Honda

Seantheconn: más afeminado que un jamboree de Guías Internacional

jrduquemin
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 09:22 am

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby jrduquemin » Tue Nov 27, 2012 15:33 pm

The latter probably....
2010 Lynskey R230
2013 Yeti SB66

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Tue Nov 27, 2012 15:36 pm

It won't do much until he can persuade the rest of the EU to do away with fre trade agreements which in effect, allow a country HQ in one place to do business with the rest of Europe.

It didn't start out as a free trade area by accident.

Saw the usual whinging article about Amazon in the paper today.

You buy from a website in a foreign country, owned by a foreign company, and you pay on a credit card whose offices are overseas, on a clearing system also overseas. The goods are made in a foreign country, and are shipped to the UK by a foreign courier, until they arrive in the UK, when the Royal mail or equivalent, delivers them. They might stay in a storage unit in the UK for a couple of days before delivery and the staff are paid in the UK, pay taxes, the warehouse pays taxes, and the company pays NI.

So no, Amazon is not a UK company and doesn't pay much in the way of taxes. If they wanted to be awkward, they could pull out of the UK, close down the distributions centre, and move it to Calais, and post the good from there, and they won't have a Uk company.

But nobody will stop buying from them will they ?

User avatar
team47b
Posts: 5299
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 18:39 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby team47b » Wed Nov 28, 2012 19:27 pm

Avoidance not evasion :roll:

It's tax avoidance your chancellor is wanting to clamp down on, evasion is illegal so doesn't need a bill.

I think you're right...
a method of keeping the electorate happy with a namby pamby bill that doesn't really cut the mustard

There are about 100 new 'aggressive' tax avoidance schemes declared every year so they are gonna be busy if they want to actually make a difference!
my isetta is a 300cc bike

User avatar
Pinno
Posts: 18619
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 15:37 pm
Contact:

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Pinno » Wed Nov 28, 2012 21:14 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:
So no, Amazon is not a UK company and doesn't pay much in the way of taxes. If they wanted to be awkward, they could pull out of the UK, close down the distributions centre, and move it to Calais, and post the good from there, and they won't have a Uk company.

But nobody will stop buying from them will they ?


Why not (sounds over simplistic but stll):

Company A, based in Whereverville derives 25% of its hypothetical income of x million from the UK. Tax them on that 25%. ? PAYE if you like ?
Probably difficult to construct but if you turned around to Boots (Alliance Group) who have shifted their head office to Switzerland and said - "You owe us y amount in corporate tax, pay it or else". There is no way they would say we aren't going to. In any event, if Boots folded (by a very long stretch of the imagination) as a direct result, the void would be filled very quickly.
"It's really tough to make a living, but a man's just gotta try" Disgruntledgoat - who owe's me 10 Goat Bucks

S - The womens Brazilian beach volleyball team
W - Wiggle Honda

Seantheconn: más afeminado que un jamboree de Guías Internacional

User avatar
daviesee
Posts: 6445
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 18:37 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby daviesee » Thu Nov 29, 2012 07:34 am

pinarello001 wrote:Why not (sounds over simplistic but stll):

Company A, based in Whereverville derives 25% of its hypothetical income of x million from the UK. Tax them on that 25%. ? PAYE if you like ?
Probably difficult to construct but if you turned around to Boots (Alliance Group) who have shifted their head office to Switzerland and said - "You owe us y amount in corporate tax, pay it or else". There is no way they would say we aren't going to. In any event, if Boots folded (by a very long stretch of the imagination) as a direct result, the void would be filled very quickly.

Immediate response from Boots - Else what?
None of the above should be taken seriously, and certainly not personally.

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Thu Nov 29, 2012 09:40 am

pinarello001 wrote:Company A, based in Whereverville derives 25% of its hypothetical income of x million from the UK. Tax them on that 25%. ? PAYE if you like ?


They already collect VAT for HMG. If you try and open up those gates, the same will happen to every Uk company who does business overseas and they will go out of business.

You still don't seem to recognise that although YOU are in the UK, no part of the company you actually order from, is. Its no different than calling up a US bike manufacturer on the phone, buying a bike and having it shipped to you in the UK. Then you think the US company should be paying UK taxes ?

Everyone would like to be the only country which collects taxes from foreign companies shipping things to the UK but blithely ignore the effect on our exports when other countries start taxing UK companies for accepting orders from their citizens and our companies can no longer afford to export.

User avatar
Pinno
Posts: 18619
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 15:37 pm
Contact:

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Pinno » Fri Nov 30, 2012 16:00 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:
pinarello001 wrote:Company A, based in Whereverville derives 25% of its hypothetical income of x million from the UK. Tax them on that 25%. ? PAYE if you like ?


Everyone would like to be the only country which collects taxes from foreign companies shipping things to the UK but blithely ignore the effect on our exports when other countries start taxing UK companies for accepting orders from their citizens and our companies can no longer afford to export.


Yeah, point taken. Why not have blanket taxation in the EU that would nulify any reason to shift your head office and:

Shouldn't we slap a 20% import duty on non perishable, non EU goods* ? That would A) Stimulate the economies within the EU by B) Making cheepie Chinese junk et al not worth buying.

*I say 'perishable' 'cos I do like my Colombian coffee and we still have to suport the old colonial banana economies (which would incl. Holland, Portugal, the Banana guzzling Germans, Portugal Spain, France etc).
"It's really tough to make a living, but a man's just gotta try" Disgruntledgoat - who owe's me 10 Goat Bucks

S - The womens Brazilian beach volleyball team
W - Wiggle Honda

Seantheconn: más afeminado que un jamboree de Guías Internacional

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Fri Nov 30, 2012 16:23 pm

pinarello001 wrote:Yeah, point taken. Why not have blanket taxation in the EU that would nulify any reason to shift your head office and:


Beacuse that would be a step too far for just about every country in the Eurozone. that tax harmonisation and it involves giving up the right for governments to set their own taxation regimes - one step away from a single government in Europe.

pinarello001 wrote:Shouldn't we slap a 20% import duty on non perishable, non EU goods* ? That would A) Stimulate the economies within the EU by B) Making cheepie Chinese junk et al not worth buying.

*I say 'perishable' 'cos I do like my Colombian coffee and we still have to suport the old colonial banana economies (which would incl. Holland, Portugal, the Banana guzzling Germans, Portugal Spain, France etc).


Two basic reasons why not.

1. Its against WTO rules and you'd end up with retaliatory measures against your little 'safe' zone.
2. If you do it, you quickly find that the protected industries become even less efficient, even more burdensome and inefficient and quickly become a public sector entity with all the world leading abilities of British Leyland, British Steel, Rolls Royce (before privatisation) and a whole host of other walking dead organisations. Before you know it, you have a massively subsidised public sector company which needs to be put out of its misery. Think of British Rail pre-breakup, but without the charm. Protectionist masures simply don't work in the long term. Look at the mess France is in with its collapsing car industry, 56% of its people in the public sector and massive debt. And the locals still don't buy enough French cars - they like UK made Japanse ones or German ones.

Cheap Chinese junk is cheapo because thats all its worth - nobody will buy a £1 piece of junk for £10 if its made in the UK, and if people expect not to be paid chines wages, then the junk has to be subsidised by central taxation.

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Fri Nov 30, 2012 16:24 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:
pinarello001 wrote:Yeah, point taken. Why not have blanket taxation in the EU that would nulify any reason to shift your head office and:


Because that would be a step too far for just about every country in the Eurozone. That is tax harmonisation and it involves giving up the right for governments to set their own taxation regimes - one step away from a single government in Europe. This has been shouted down by every government in the past. Nobody except France is for that and thats because France expects to be in charge of everyone else.

pinarello001 wrote:Shouldn't we slap a 20% import duty on non perishable, non EU goods* ? That would A) Stimulate the economies within the EU by B) Making cheepie Chinese junk et al not worth buying.

*I say 'perishable' 'cos I do like my Colombian coffee and we still have to suport the old colonial banana economies (which would incl. Holland, Portugal, the Banana guzzling Germans, Portugal Spain, France etc).


Two basic reasons why not.

1. Its against WTO rules and you'd end up with retaliatory measures against your little 'safe' zone.
2. If you do it, you quickly find that the protected industries become even less efficient, even more burdensome and inefficient and quickly become a public sector entity with all the world leading abilities of British Leyland, British Steel, Rolls Royce (before privatisation) and a whole host of other walking dead organisations. Before you know it, you have a massively subsidised public sector company which needs to be put out of its misery. Think of British Rail pre-breakup, but without the charm. Protectionist masures simply don't work in the long term. Look at the mess France is in with its collapsing car industry, 56% of its people in the public sector and massive debt. And the locals still don't buy enough French cars - they like UK made Japanse ones or German ones.

Cheap Chinese junk is cheapo because thats all its worth - nobody will buy a £1 piece of junk for £10 if its made in the UK, and if people expect not to be paid chines wages, then the junk has to be subsidised by central taxation.

User avatar
Pinno
Posts: 18619
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 15:37 pm
Contact:

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Pinno » Fri Nov 30, 2012 17:54 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:
tiredofwhiners wrote:
pinarello001 wrote:Yeah, point taken. Why not have blanket taxation in the EU that would nulify any reason to shift your head office and:


pinarello001 wrote:


Two basic reasons why not.
taxation.


Bollox. Why don't you post something less sensible which is going to cheer me up ?
"It's really tough to make a living, but a man's just gotta try" Disgruntledgoat - who owe's me 10 Goat Bucks

S - The womens Brazilian beach volleyball team
W - Wiggle Honda

Seantheconn: más afeminado que un jamboree de Guías Internacional

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Fri Nov 30, 2012 18:45 pm

Well I could but if you persist with getting your knowledge of how the world works, from the Guardian newspaper, you'll end up disappointed for most of your life ;)

Frank the tank
Posts: 6606
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:22 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Frank the tank » Sat Dec 01, 2012 05:38 am

I'm sure IF THEY REALL,REALLY WANTED TO any British government could come up with a way of closing said loopholes. Afterall they're clever enough to keep thinking of ways of taxing the masses.

Psssst, (whisper) thing is they don't want to. Members of government tend to be pretty wealthy it'd be like turkeys voting for christmas.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:49 pm

Frank the tank wrote:I'm sure IF THEY REALL,REALLY WANTED TO any British government could come up with a way of closing said loopholes. Afterall they're clever enough to keep thinking of ways of taxing the masses.


There are no loopholes and thats the bit the thickys out there miss every time - its called being in a free trade area and its designed to be that way. Its not an accident. Its not a loophole. Any attempt to stop what you call a loophole will have the simple effect of every other country retaliating by applying taxes to our exports and we lose out big time. This happened in the US if I recall when the US applied rules for steel imports so the other countries applied tariffs on things the US wanted to export and after a few months, the US steel industry was being out lobbied by several industries who didn't like losing out, just to protect the dying steel industry.

All actions have consequences and thats the bit the Guardian readership try really hard to ignore. Read up above how stopping the Amazon 'loophole' would cost thousands of jobs and result in higher prices, and mass disobedience. You simply cannot live in a free trade zone and expect people not to trade freely across borders. And that includes trading in taxation.

Frank the tank
Posts: 6606
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:22 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Frank the tank » Sat Dec 01, 2012 17:42 pm

Whether they're genuine loopholes or intentional part of legislation IMHO paying the correct amount of tax beit corporation or whatever should be paid. If it is as you say, then the government should "come clean" and let the masses deciede if they think it's a fair way for the free market to carry on.
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

User avatar
Pinno
Posts: 18619
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 15:37 pm
Contact:

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Pinno » Sat Dec 01, 2012 20:04 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:Well I could but if you persist with getting your knowledge of how the world works, from the Guardian newspaper, you'll end up disappointed for most of your life ;)


That a bit out of order.

The fact is Amazon paid 1.8m in tax on profits of 350m from its activities in the UK for example. Thats wrong and just to say in more convaluted terms that 'that is the way the world and free trade areas work' is flippant. The OP is about finding a way of trying to seal up tax loop holes which are unfair on the rest of us who bear the burden of ecomonic downturn and cuts.
The way the world works has been unequal and the booms and busts have led to the most catastrophic of busts of what we discovered to be a pack of cards. The current (global) economic set up is skewed and irregular. What we need is a fundamental change in its mechanics, Guardian reader or not.
So as Frankie Tankie said, the correct level of taxation needs to be paid and I say that if there was a will, there would be a way. The fact is, there is not a way because there is no will.
"It's really tough to make a living, but a man's just gotta try" Disgruntledgoat - who owe's me 10 Goat Bucks

S - The womens Brazilian beach volleyball team
W - Wiggle Honda

Seantheconn: más afeminado que un jamboree de Guías Internacional

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Sat Dec 01, 2012 20:10 pm

Frank the tank wrote:Whether they're genuine loopholes or intentional part of legislation IMHO paying the correct amount of tax beit corporation or whatever should be paid. If it is as you say, then the government should "come clean" and let the masses deciede if they think it's a fair way for the free market to carry on.


Try reading this bit again from higher up.

"You buy from a website in a foreign country, owned by a foreign company, and you pay on a credit card whose offices are overseas, on a clearing system also overseas. The goods are made in a foreign country, and are shipped to the UK by a foreign courier, until they arrive in the UK, when the Royal mail or equivalent, delivers them. They might stay in a storage unit in the UK for a couple of days before delivery and the staff are paid in the UK, pay taxes, the warehouse pays taxes, and the company pays NI.

So no, Amazon is not a UK company and doesn't pay much in the way of taxes. If they wanted to be awkward, they could pull out of the UK, close down the distributions centre, and move it to Calais, and post the good from there, and they won't have a Uk company."


You don't get to vote on each and every decision that governments make - thats how the entire world works. You get to vote on who you want to lead the country. The government has been very clear about what the tax rules are and people have been very very very happy to reap the rewards of cheap goods whether its books, DVD's, coffee or cheap advertising available in the UK.

The correct amount of tax has been paid. If you don;t like it then try getting elected on a message of higher taxes for the country and higher unemployment as every international company pulls a large part of its business out of the country.

User avatar
Stevo 666
Posts: 18588
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:21 am

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Stevo 666 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 20:40 pm

pinarello001 wrote: Why not (sounds over simplistic but stll):

Company A, based in Whereverville derives 25% of its hypothetical income of x million from the UK. Tax them on that 25%. ? PAYE if you like ?

It goes against the principle of freedom to trade where you want to trade just a little bit doesn't it? And when the taxman in Whereville also wants his slice of tax on that sale because Company A is based there and pays taxes there, company A ends up paying taxes on the same sale twice. Doesn't work and would kill export markets unless you set up a mechanism to credit one tax against another - in which case why bother in the first place?


pinarello001 wrote:Probably difficult to construct but if you turned around to Boots (Alliance Group) who have shifted their head office to Switzerland and said - "You owe us y amount in corporate tax, pay it or else". There is no way they would say we aren't going to. In any event, if Boots folded (by a very long stretch of the imagination) as a direct result, the void would be filled very quickly.

The UK taxman has no legal right to tax a Swiss company. But the profits from trading in the UK are taxed here becasue Boots has one (or more) UK companies. Companies move to Switzerland for reasons more complex than that - usually to do with the the UK taxman wanting a cut of tax on profits earned abroad rather than what's earned in the UK.
Whippet
Bruiser
Panzer
Commuter

"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]

Frank the tank
Posts: 6606
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 21:22 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby Frank the tank » Sat Dec 01, 2012 23:40 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:
Frank the tank wrote:Whether they're genuine loopholes or intentional part of legislation IMHO paying the correct amount of tax beit corporation or whatever should be paid. If it is as you say, then the government should "come clean" and let the masses deciede if they think it's a fair way for the free market to carry on.


Try reading this bit again from higher up.

"You buy from a website in a foreign country, owned by a foreign company, and you pay on a credit card whose offices are overseas, on a clearing system also overseas. The goods are made in a foreign country, and are shipped to the UK by a foreign courier, until they arrive in the UK, when the Royal mail or equivalent, delivers them. They might stay in a storage unit in the UK for a couple of days before delivery and the staff are paid in the UK, pay taxes, the warehouse pays taxes, and the company pays NI.

So no, Amazon is not a UK company and doesn't pay much in the way of taxes. If they wanted to be awkward, they could pull out of the UK, close down the distributions centre, and move it to Calais, and post the good from there, and they won't have a Uk company."


You don't get to vote on each and every decision that governments make - thats how the entire world works. You get to vote on who you want to lead the country. The government has been very clear about what the tax rules are and people have been very very very happy to reap the rewards of cheap goods whether its books, DVD's, coffee or cheap advertising available in the UK.

The correct amount of tax has been paid. If you don;t like it then try getting elected on a message of higher taxes for the country and higher unemployment as every international company pulls a large part of its business out of the country.


Excuse me, who says I buy off web sites?
Tail end Charlie

The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.

tiredofwhiners
Posts: 598
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 15:38 pm

Re: The trial of Team47b (Tax evasion)

Postby tiredofwhiners » Sun Dec 02, 2012 15:40 pm

Frank the tank wrote:Excuse me, who says I buy off web sites?


Nobody, but it illustrates why your naive view of how the world works is inaccurate. Expecting to be personally consulted on a decision shows you need to keep taking the medication.


Return to “The Cake Stop”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: orraloon and 8 guests