Training With Power - Evidence

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby NewTTer » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:51 am

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:Trev you obviously fail to see the point of power meters. A power meter might not improve the effectiveness of my training. However it will allow me to objectively measure how hard and fast I can currently pedal, and it will allow me to measure any improvements as such (if any) over time. Neither heart rate nor PE can do this. Why is that so hard for you to fathom?



If a power meter does not improve the effectiveness of your training what is the point of it?

There are other ways of measuring improvements.

Often the improvements are very slight, a power meter is only accurate to plus or minus 1% or 2%, (even when calibrated correctly and when actually working), which is not accurate enough to measure small subtle improvements. Just 1% of a 25 mile time trial is 440 yards or 36 seconds over an hour. Power meters are not really accurate enough to pick up small improvements.

Which are?
You really do need to seek urgent help Trev, you are displaying sociopathic tendancies with alarming frequency, make an appointment with your GP, not your mate Coggan, and get some help

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:54 am

Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:There are other ways of measuring improvements.

Often the improvements are very slight, a power meter is only accurate to plus or minus 1% or 2%, (even when calibrated correctly and when actually working), which is not accurate enough to measure small subtle improvements. Just 1% of a 25 mile time trial is 440 yards or 36 seconds over an hour. Power meters are not really accurate enough to pick up small improvements.

Not everyone is able to do 25 mile time trials regularly. Especially not on the same course with exactly the same conditions (wind speed, wind direction, temperature). +/- 2% is a much smaller margin of error than the difference in time caused by weather conditions.

Now I already knew you were trolling from your first post, I'm only arguing with you because I'm off work and I'm bored, and trying to put off the laborious task of washing my bike, doing the weekly checks on my car, and tidying up the house. So please continue with your trollery, it is actually benefiting me!


I was not advocating doing time trials to measure improvements in fitness or performance. The passing traffic alone makes the time a poor measure. I was merely pointing out the accuracy of a power meter. A margin of error of 440 yards or 36 seconds is too big a margin for meaningful data.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby slunker » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:06 pm

I use race results and times at my local TT to see if I'm improving, I don't need a Pm to tell me that, but I can see how a PM would motivate people in their training watching there figures go up and trying to improve on them. I'm a bit old school and prefer to listen to my body and that has been a fairly good indicator of how I'm going.

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Herbsman
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:22 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:I was not advocating doing time trials to measure improvements in fitness or performance. The passing traffic alone makes the time a poor measure. I was merely pointing out the accuracy of a power meter. A margin of error of 440 yards or 36 seconds is too big a margin for meaningful data.

So what's a more accurate way of measuring performance then?

If I want to know how hard and fast I can pedal for five minutes (bearing in mind there are no hills around here that take longer than 90 seconds to climb) how do I measure that to within 2% accuracy?
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 03, 2012 13:39 pm

Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I was not advocating doing time trials to measure improvements in fitness or performance. The passing traffic alone makes the time a poor measure. I was merely pointing out the accuracy of a power meter. A margin of error of 440 yards or 36 seconds is too big a margin for meaningful data.

So what's a more accurate way of measuring performance then?

If I want to know how hard and fast I can pedal for five minutes (bearing in mind there are no hills around here that take longer than 90 seconds to climb) how do I measure that to within 2% accuracy?


Outdoors a power meter would measure power to within 2% accuracy if calibrated correctly. But would measuring it make the 5 minute effort more effective?

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby NewTTer » Mon Dec 03, 2012 14:24 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I was not advocating doing time trials to measure improvements in fitness or performance. The passing traffic alone makes the time a poor measure. I was merely pointing out the accuracy of a power meter. A margin of error of 440 yards or 36 seconds is too big a margin for meaningful data.

So what's a more accurate way of measuring performance then?

If I want to know how hard and fast I can pedal for five minutes (bearing in mind there are no hills around here that take longer than 90 seconds to climb) how do I measure that to within 2% accuracy?


Outdoors a power meter would measure power to within 2% accuracy if calibrated correctly. But would measuring it make the 5 minute effort more effective?

You really are very stupid Trev, of course measuring it wont have any direct effect on its effectiveness. Howver using the data that is collected could. A power meter itself is much like you a DUMB OBJECT, and on its own will make no difference to ouput, it merely collects the data that will allow, if required or desired, others or the user to monitor for improvement, and put in place corrective actions to assist that improvement

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Mon Dec 03, 2012 14:46 pm

Gawd, i have deja vu all over again :-(.
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 14:50 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:I was not advocating doing time trials to measure improvements in fitness or performance. The passing traffic alone makes the time a poor measure. I was merely pointing out the accuracy of a power meter. A margin of error of 440 yards or 36 seconds is too big a margin for meaningful data.

So what's a more accurate way of measuring performance then?

If I want to know how hard and fast I can pedal for five minutes (bearing in mind there are no hills around here that take longer than 90 seconds to climb) how do I measure that to within 2% accuracy?


Outdoors a power meter would measure power to within 2% accuracy if calibrated correctly. But would measuring it make the 5 minute effort more effective?

Once a five minute test has been taken, the power meter can be used to pace future five minute efforts. Thus helping the rider to ride at the 'correct' intensity, i.e. hard enough to stimulate adaptations but not so hard that they can't finish the interval without their power dropping significantly.
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 03, 2012 15:06 pm

I see you have been reading the works of Dr Andrew Coggan.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 15:09 pm

No, I haven't actually. Should I have?
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 03, 2012 15:14 pm

Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 15:24 pm

Ok.
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby NapoleonD » Mon Dec 03, 2012 15:50 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.


Why? There's no evidence to suggest any benefit?
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 03, 2012 15:55 pm

NapoleonD wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.


Why? There's no evidence to suggest any benefit?


Well you can't really argue about theology without reading The Bible.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby NewTTer » Mon Dec 03, 2012 16:37 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.


Why? There's no evidence to suggest any benefit?


Well you can't really argue about theology without reading The Bible.

Apart from the fact that if you truly believe a mythical being created the world in 7 days, and are then daft enough to base your life on this fairy story, then you have more problems that I originally thougth Trev

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Mon Dec 03, 2012 16:43 pm

NewTTer wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.


Why? There's no evidence to suggest any benefit?


Well you can't really argue about theology without reading The Bible.

Apart from the fact that if you truly believe a mythical being created the world in 7 days, and are then daft enough to base your life on this fairy story, then you have more problems that I originally thougth Trev


Reading something does not mean you believe it or agree with it.

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Mon Dec 03, 2012 17:02 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.


Why? There's no evidence to suggest any benefit?


Well you can't really argue about theology without reading The Bible.

Hahahaha. Comparing a book on performance measurement and analysis to a book of fairy stories? What planet are you on?
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Trev The Rev » Tue Dec 04, 2012 08:50 am

Herbsman wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
NapoleonD wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:No, I haven't actually. Should I have?


Yes you should read his work if you want to get the most out of training with power I would go as far as to say it is a must.


Why? There's no evidence to suggest any benefit?


Well you can't really argue about theology without reading The Bible.

Hahahaha. Comparing a book on performance measurement and analysis to a book of fairy stories? What planet are you on?


To be fair to Coggan & Allen, their book is very much the training with power bible. However I doubt it will ever achieve the sales, readership or shelf life of the New Testament.

But we digress, the question is this,

Is there any evidence power meters enable you to train more effectively?

An over reliance on power output data may not be the best approach. You can train very effectively without a power meter.

I really would like to see some evidence. Much is said about training with power and data analysis and power meters are very expensive. Is it really too much to ask for some evidence?

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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Tue Dec 04, 2012 09:33 am

i believe that hamish is doing the research you're interested in
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Herbsman
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Re: Training With Power - Evidence

Postby Herbsman » Tue Dec 04, 2012 09:34 am

Trev The Rev wrote:....the question is this,

Is there any evidence power meters enable you to train more effectively?

An over reliance on power output data may not be the best approach. You can train very effectively without a power meter.

I really would like to see some evidence. Much is said about training with power and data analysis and power meters are very expensive. Is it really too much to ask for some evidence?


I refer you to my previous post, which you seem to have missed.

Herbsman wrote:Finding the evidence that you are looking for would require much more than a flawed 5-week study with a sample size of only 20 athletes training only at lactate threshold intensity and then only measuring 20km TT performance. It would require more time, more athletes, more types of training and more controlled variables, and more measures of changes in performance (30s, 1min, 5min, 20min etc). And it's not power meters alone that make training more effective - it's the athlete or coaches ability to interpret the power data and adjust the training as necessary. How can you control that variable in a study? This is why you are very unlikely to find a decent scientific study that shows power meters to be superior to HR monitors. It would cost too much, it would take a long time and it would probably be too complicated and difficult to control.

It's not as if there is a big power meter company with millions of pounds to spend on funding such studies in the way that Gatorade funds studies into the benefits of sports drinks (the results of which, strangely, always seem to be in their favour...)


If you knew anything about scientific research you'd have worked that out yourself already...

Unless someone is trying to force you to buy a power meter, or you are trying to decide to buy one for yourself, I don't see what the problem is.

I know that I don't need one myself. However, I want one because I'd like to be able to pace my efforts better, record how much work I've been doing, and measure my improvements. I want hard data instead of guesswork. Having had a keen interest in science from school age, studying it at university and (very briefly) working in analytical chemistry, power measurement appeals to me. I don't need evidence or dogmatic belief that it will or won't work better than training by RPE - because that's not the point of it for me.
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