Training benefits of a Club Run

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hutchy_belfast

Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby hutchy_belfast » Tue Dec 04, 2012 17:25 pm

Just wondering people's opinions on this topic. I recently joined a club, they have a good hard Saturday run out usually 40m ish around 20-22mph. They also have a longer run out on the Sunday usually 55-60m at 15-16mph avg. I am yet to go to a Sunday run for two reasons... They happen at 930 when I'm hungover but also, I'm not sure how much use 15mph group cycling would be to my goals.
Instead I'll go out in the afternoon for an hr or two at a more exertive pace on my own. Is there much benefit other than 'time in the saddle'? I doubt that pace would even reach zone 2 for most folks in training. This is obviously approaching the club run from a sociopath training view point rather than the friendly, let's go out for fun, make friends and have a bun aim.

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smidsy
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby smidsy » Tue Dec 04, 2012 19:04 pm

More beneficial than your Saturday night binge drinking.

If its easy, use it as your recovery ride.
Yellow is the new Black.

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Herbsman
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Herbsman » Tue Dec 04, 2012 19:15 pm

At this time of year the roads are spilling over with large groups of riders in their club colours benefiting from increased motivation by riding in a group on cold and damp days. This notoriously signals the traditional start to winter preparation for many athletes, emphasising building ‘base’ or ‘endurance’, which is perceived by many as the benefits gained from such training rides.

What actual training stimulus will these rides provide and how effective are they when increasing performance?


How to maximise training stimulus on the weekend group rides.
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hutchy_belfast

Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby hutchy_belfast » Tue Dec 04, 2012 19:16 pm

Too right, that wouldn't be hard. Not much point in using it as a recovery ride at the minute for me though, I'm not getting enough hard miles to needs one.

hutchy_belfast

Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby hutchy_belfast » Tue Dec 04, 2012 19:28 pm

Herbsman wrote:
At this time of year the roads are spilling over with large groups of riders in their club colours benefiting from increased motivation by riding in a group on cold and damp days. This notoriously signals the traditional start to winter preparation for many athletes, emphasising building ‘base’ or ‘endurance’, which is perceived by many as the benefits gained from such training rides.

What actual training stimulus will these rides provide and how effective are they when increasing performance?


How to maximise training stimulus on the weekend group rides.

Thanks for that, it supports my theory that my time could be better spent knocking my pan in solo for a couple of hours even if my total miles suffer. I try to get in 4 turbo sessions and a couple of 20 m commutes during the week but I can't face more than an hour on the turbo and it's not even close to a high enough load to warrant recovery miles!

poynedexter
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby poynedexter » Tue Dec 04, 2012 21:42 pm

join another club? my last club run with ndcc was 84 mile door to door with plenty of opportunities to tow the group along for lots of training benefit.

this time of year is usually a slightly lower pace i'd say (tho still more than enough for me)

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ALIHISGREAT
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby ALIHISGREAT » Tue Dec 04, 2012 21:50 pm

My local club run ends with a 4 mile 'race' and sprint :lol:

Not exactly good for training.. especially when your legs go and you still have 10 miles to get home! but my competitive streak means its too hard to resist unfortunately!

hutchy_belfast

Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby hutchy_belfast » Tue Dec 04, 2012 22:47 pm

poynedexter wrote:join another club? my last club run with ndcc was 84 mile door to door with plenty of opportunities to tow the group along for lots of training benefit.

this time of year is usually a slightly lower pace i'd say (tho still more than enough for me)

Happy enough with the club, friendly and local and the Saturday run out is a good one. I'm not the fastest there and still have lots to learn. I'm not sure they would appreciate me trying to tow anyone along any faster on the Sunday though, it seems like more of a friendly social run. Was just wondering whether or not I should feel guilty for ducking out of 60 gentle miles in exchange for 30 hard ones.

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cyco2
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby cyco2 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 07:33 am

If you want to get something out of that Sunday social ride do it on a heavier bike. Set out to be the slowest bike in the group by getting it to weigh say 35lbs +. Putting heavier tyres (not tires) also helps with reducing punctures. Use an MTB with slicks. When I only had one bike I put lead rods down the seat tube or carried 4 litres of water in a rucksack. Fit shorter cranks. Riding fast on a light bike is not the only way to make it hard.
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If you want to be a strong rider you have to do strong things.
However if you train like a cart horse you'll race like one.

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Herbsman
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Herbsman » Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:09 am

cyco2 wrote:If you want to get something out of that Sunday social ride do it on a heavier bike. Set out to be the slowest bike in the group by getting it to weigh say 35lbs +. Putting heavier tyres (not tires) also helps with reducing punctures. Use an MTB with slicks. When I only had one bike I put lead rods down the seat tube or carried 4 litres of water in a rucksack. Fit shorter cranks. Riding fast on a light bike is not the only way to make it hard.

...although increasing the weight of the bike only makes it harder to accelerate and ride up hills (and to slow down). Once you are up to speed it makes little difference.

Best thing to do is put putty in your wheel & BB bearings and allow your chain to rust. This increases resistance on all types of terrain and will increase the required effort by 20-40%, thus negating any drafting benefits.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:13 am

Herbsman wrote:Although increasing the weight of the bike only makes it harder to accelerate and ride up hills (and to slow down).

Best thing to do is put putty in your wheel & BB bearings and allow your chain to rust. This increases resistance on all types of terrain and will increase the required effort by 20-40%, thus negating any drafting benefits.


Attach fins to the spokes to increase drag.

ChrisAOnABike
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby ChrisAOnABike » Wed Dec 05, 2012 09:17 am

Pedal with only one leg at a time.
Is the gorilla tired yet?

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cyco2
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby cyco2 » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:21 am

Herbsman wrote:
cyco2 wrote:Once you are up to speed it makes little difference.


That is a ridiculous statement to make. Have a really good think about it. The tiny accelerations that take place when pedalling a bike are all effected by the weight of the bike. Even taking all other factors in to account the weight is a significant factor. It doesn't go away once your up to speed.

Your other suggestions are equally just as wonderful. :lol: :roll:
...................................................................................................



If you want to be a strong rider you have to do strong things.

However if you train like a cart horse you'll race like one.

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Herbsman
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Herbsman » Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:34 am

cyco2 wrote:
Herbsman wrote:
cyco2 wrote:Once you are up to speed it makes little difference.


That is a ridiculous statement to make. Have a really good think about it. The tiny accelerations that take place when pedalling a bike are all effected by the weight of the bike. Even taking all other factors in to account the weight is a significant factor. It doesn't go away once your up to speed.

Your other suggestions are equally just as wonderful. :lol: :roll:


When riding at a steady speed on flat ground the main form of resistance that you are working against is air resistance. The effect of weight is barely significant in comparison.

Increasing the weight of the bike only makes it harder to work against gravity, for example overcoming the initial rolling resistance when accelerating from low speed, and when riding up hills.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:06 am

Most parts of the UK are never flat though.

Even doing 20mph up only 1% gradient needs approx 76 watts to overcome gravity alone before friction and drag for a 75 kilo rider. At 15 mph up a 2% gradient you would need 114 watts before accounting for friction plus drag.

Small weight savings over even flatish terrain do make a difference but it is only a handful of watts. Once you crank up the gradient though it can become significant. The same 75 kilo rider would need approx 190 watts to do 10mph up a 5% gradient to overcome gravity alone.

Seeing as you spend so much more time going up hill weight savings make a considerable difference on a club run.

Above figures are based on a total weight of a 75 kilo rider plus clothing & bike.

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Herbsman
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Herbsman » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:22 am

Right. But you are taling about varying gradients, keeping the weight the same at 75kg. We're talking about changing the weight.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:43 am

Herbsman wrote:Right. But you are taling about varying gradients, keeping the weight the same at 75kg. We're talking about changing the weight.


Yes, but it is easy enough to work out percentage weight savings and percentage savings in watts in your head.........
unless you grew up using calculators and computers to do simple maths.

It makes it more interesting if you do the calculations in nautical miles per hour and use lbs & ozs and horse power then convert to watts but that is best saved for really boring sessions on the turbo.

Generally speaking I would say that if you look at the power meter data from a good long club ride you could brake it down into all sorts of segments and intervals and zones, throw in some jargon, poke it all up a golden cheetah's anus and call it a damn good structured training ride, particularly if you were riding with stronger riders.
Last edited by Trev The Rev on Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

themekon
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby themekon » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:08 pm

Getting back to the OP. Why can't you just enjoy a clubrun for the pleasure of the ride and the company. Not every ride has to be a training ride and certainly not at this time of year. A lot of people just forget why they started riding a bike in the first place, for the pleasure of it. Don't get hung up on having every ride as a training ride.

Trev The Rev
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Trev The Rev » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:15 pm

themekon wrote:Getting back to the OP. Why can't you just enjoy a clubrun for the pleasure of the ride and the company. Not every ride has to be a training ride and certainly not at this time of year. A lot of people just forget why they started riding a bike in the first place, for the pleasure of it. Don't get hung up on having every ride as a training ride.


What and ride without recording the power data? Wouldn't that mess up your Training Stress Score?

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Herbsman
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Re: Training benefits of a Club Run

Postby Herbsman » Wed Dec 05, 2012 16:33 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Herbsman wrote:Right. But you are taling about varying gradients, keeping the weight the same at 75kg. We're talking about changing the weight.


Yes, but it is easy enough to work out percentage weight savings and percentage savings in watts in your head.........
unless you grew up using calculators and computers to do simple maths.

It makes it more interesting if you do the calculations in nautical miles per hour and use lbs & ozs and horse power then convert to watts but that is best saved for really boring sessions on the turbo.

Generally speaking I would say that if you look at the power meter data from a good long club ride you could brake it down into all sorts of segments and intervals and zones, throw in some jargon, poke it all up a golden cheetah's anus and call it a damn good structured training ride, particularly if you were riding with stronger riders.

So at 20mph how many more watts would I, a 75kg rider have to produce up a 1% gradient if I increased the weight of my bike by 10kg? Without using a calculator, please.


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