New study on EPO research

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Richmond Racer
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New study on EPO research

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:06 pm

This seems to be putting the cat amongst the pigeons today


http://www.sciencecodex.com/epo_doping_ ... arm-103354

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ddraver
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby ddraver » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:12 pm

Athletes and their medical staff may believe EPO enhances performance, but there is no evidence that anyone performed good experiments to check if EPO would actually improve performance in elite cyclists,"

So no one has done a scientific study to quantify the effect of EPO on performance, not that EPO does nt result in any performance increase!

My Skepticsense is tingling...
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Richmond Racer
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:16 pm

Agree - much also coming from the likes of the Science of Sport guys understandably

From what little I've read, the beef (sorry, really no Bertie-linked pun intended) in this review is that studies have been performed on normal peeps, not elite cyclists (who no doubt would have been queuing up to participate in such studies :shock: )

Its all been a mahoosive placebo, dont you know
Last edited by Richmond Racer on Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Trev The Rev
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Trev The Rev » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:20 pm

Richmond Racer wrote:This seems to be putting the cat amongst the pigeons today


http://www.sciencecodex.com/epo_doping_ ... arm-103354


I would have thought most users would have power meter data which proves the EPO they took improved their performance.

Richmond Racer
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:23 pm

Trev The Rev wrote:
Richmond Racer wrote:This seems to be putting the cat amongst the pigeons today


http://www.sciencecodex.com/epo_doping_ ... arm-103354


I would have thought most users would have power meter data which proves the EPO they took improved their performance.



Power meter readings arent going to prove link to EPO in any scientific way

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ddraver
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby ddraver » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:30 pm

Oh God! Where did he come from!!!
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Richmond Racer
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:31 pm

ddraver wrote:Oh God! Where did he come from!!!



hang on....banned, right?

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ddraver
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby ddraver » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:34 pm

Don't think he was ever banned

I'm just waiting for a glut of posts proving that EPO is useless because Dr Andrew Coggan showed so in an study on the breeding patterns of swallows now...
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Trev The Rev
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Trev The Rev » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:39 pm

Richmond Racer wrote:
Trev The Rev wrote:
Richmond Racer wrote:This seems to be putting the cat amongst the pigeons today


http://www.sciencecodex.com/epo_doping_ ... arm-103354


I would have thought most users would have power meter data which proves the EPO they took improved their performance.



Power meter readings arent going to prove link to EPO in any scientific way



I bet there have been scientific studies but they weren't done by people who would publish them.

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Above The Cows
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Above The Cows » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:39 pm

Ah yes the old correlation is not causation chestnut that I'm normally at pains to point out when rubbishing other people's work.

This could be a good way of explaining it from a pedagogical perspective,which I have to do often...

"OK students so even though we know that Lance Armstrong (you all know who he is right?) and others went considerably faster up hill after taking lots of EPO (no I cannot explain the biology of it to you, this is a political science methodology class)? Correct? However, we cannot prove he went faster up hill because of the EPO because no tests have ever been carried out on the physical effects of EPO on elite level cyclists with only one testicle, yes I said testicle what of it? So you see we cannot prove a causal link. Capiche?"

:D
Correlation is not causation.

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ChrisAOnABike
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby ChrisAOnABike » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:46 pm

My Skepticsense is tingling...

Mine too.

Absence of evidence isn't the same as evidence of absence.
Is the gorilla tired yet?

Trev The Rev
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Trev The Rev » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:46 pm

http://www.jappl.org/content/105/2/581.short

In summary, in healthy humans, rHuEpo increases maximal oxygen consumption due to augmented systemic and muscular peak oxygen delivery.

But the test was not done on elite athletes.

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Mad_Malx
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Mad_Malx » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:49 pm

As DDR highlights, the main conclusion is that there is no evidence for benefit in elite cyclists.

Quote from the source article (which I can get but think might be restricted for most of you guys?): "A single well controlled trial in athletes under real life circumstances would give a better indication of the real advantages and risk factors of rHuEPO use" - i.e. why not give us some money to do this? Given that it is fairly unlikely to be moved off the banned list and there is evidence for the biological risks, exactly which elite cyclist do they expect to volunteer for this trial?

The article does have some interesting discussion about the potential benefits, and largely dismisses VO2 max as a predictor for performance. Also:
"In the reviewed rHuEPO studies, economy (C), was only measured by one group[105] and did not change
after rHuEPO treatment. This would be expected from the non-haematological, bio-mechanical factors
that determine C as discussed previously. There is, however, some evidence that prolonged exposure to rHuEPO in healthy subjects may induce changes in the human skeletal muscle with an increase in the
relative amount of the slow myosin light chain (MLC) (Type I fibres) and decreased fast MLC (Type II)
fibres, possibly leading to improved C.[134]More evidence is needed to draw conclusions about effects
of rHuEPO on C. Especially when Lance Armstrong, accused of having the biggest doping (e.g. rHuEPO)
network in the history of sports, was reported to have a high muscular efficiency partly contributing to
his world-class performance."

Source: Erythropoietin doping in cycling: Lack of evidence for efficacy and a negative risk–benefit
J A A C Heuberger, J M Cohen Tervaert, F M L Schepers, A D B Vliegenthart, J I Rotmans, J M A Daniels, J Burggraaf and A F Cohen Accepted manuscript online: 6 DEC 2012 01:21AM EST | DOI: 10.1111/bcp.12034

Edit: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 34/citedby
Last edited by Mad_Malx on Thu Dec 06, 2012 21:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rick Chasey
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Rick Chasey » Thu Dec 06, 2012 14:50 pm

Richmond Racer wrote:From what little I've read, the beef (sorry, really no Bertie-linked pun intended) in this review


Get out.


Richmond Racer
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Richmond Racer » Thu Dec 06, 2012 15:35 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Richmond Racer wrote:From what little I've read, the beef (sorry, really no Bertie-linked pun intended) in this review


Get out.



Sorry.

edhornby
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby edhornby » Thu Dec 06, 2012 15:38 pm

"Especially when Lance Armstrong, accused of having the biggest doping (e.g. rHuEPO)
network in the history of sports, was reported to have a high muscular efficiency partly contributing to
his world-class performance"

this last point sounds like a dodgy rehash of the explanation from 'it's not about the bike' where they state that Lance has a high lactic tolerance - if they are quoting from his BS autobiog then the whole study can go in the bin
"I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that"
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ddraver
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby ddraver » Thu Dec 06, 2012 15:44 pm

edhornby wrote:"Especially when Lance Armstrong, accused of having the biggest doping (e.g. rHuEPO)
network in the history of sports, was reported to have a high muscular efficiency partly contributing to
his world-class performance"

this last point sounds like a dodgy rehash of the explanation from 'it's not about the bike' where they state that Lance has a high lactic tolerance - if they are quoting from his BS autobiog then the whole study can go in the bin


Nah, it sounds more like HEY LOOK HOW RELEVANT OUR RESEARCH IS TO TODAY, GIVE US MORE MONEY PLEASE, LOTS AND LOTS MORE MONEY!!!

The equivalent in geology is shoehorning in something about climate change
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Above The Cows
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Above The Cows » Thu Dec 06, 2012 15:49 pm

ddraver wrote:The equivalent in geology is shoehorning in something about climate change


In international relations its the War on Terror or the Arab Spring, you double your money for both. Triple it if you can also include the Euro-crisis. Quadruple it with the mention of drones.
Correlation is not causation.

"He's not the new Merckx, he's just a very talented cyclist!"

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Mad_Malx
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Re: New study on EPO research

Postby Mad_Malx » Thu Dec 06, 2012 16:36 pm

Trev The Rev wrote: Linkies


But the difference between your Reverence's links and the article by Heuberger is that the latter, for all its limitations, is a review - i.e. it attempts to put together the evidence by looking at lots of studies, rather than picking one or two small studies, most of which come from the same lab.

The second link doesn't cite its source article (in the European Journal of Applied Physiology), do you have this?


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