Viva Venezuela!

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zippypablo
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby zippypablo » Wed Oct 10, 2012 21:01 pm

rodgers73 wrote:I don't know what to make of him as I know little of how Venezuala has changed or how it was before he was elected .

Annoying the CIA and his backing of regimes like Cuba doesn't seem like much of a reason to celebrate his victory though.

Is appeasing the CIA a better alternative?
Cosying up to the USA is usually a one sided affair in which the US is the main beneficiary.
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finchy
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby finchy » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:39 am

bompington wrote:Yep, another 6 years of socialist paradise.
Strikes me as a pretty poor return on all that oil money, unless of course staying in power is the only aim.


According to the article to which you linked, "income inequality has fallen dramatically in Venezuela in the recent past. The country’s Gini Coefficient—a widely used index to measure inequality by placing countries on a 0 (perfect equality) to 1 (perfect inequality) scale—moved from 0.498 in 1999 to 0.412 in 2008, a drop unparalleled in Latin America. Meanwhile, human development levels have improved consistently and considerably in the country. The UNDP’s Human Development Index (which combines measures of income, health and educational attainment also on a scale from 0 to 1, with higher levels of prosperity being closer to 1) has gone from 0.656 in 2000 to 0.735 in 2011, an increase of 1% per year. No one would guess Venezuela’s crime crisis from looking at these figures."

I don't know how accurate these figures are, but something must have motivated people to go out and vote for Chavez in such vast numbers.

tiredofwhiners
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby tiredofwhiners » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:09 am

MaxwellBygraves wrote:Nice little article in the Guardian comment section by Seamus Milne: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... in-america


Seamus's articles are, by and large, complete b*llocks. He's the male version of Polly Toynbee.

He's excellent for setting out how to spend money you don't actually have, on a socialist crusade - the old expression about socialism working until you run out of other peoples money was written for him.

The guys never done a real job in his life - just sat at the sidelines and complained about others.

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bompington
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby bompington » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:19 am

johnfinch wrote:
bompington wrote:Yep, another 6 years of socialist paradise.
Strikes me as a pretty poor return on all that oil money, unless of course staying in power is the only aim.


According to the article to which you linked, "income inequality has fallen dramatically in Venezuela in the recent past. The country’s Gini Coefficient—a widely used index to measure inequality by placing countries on a 0 (perfect equality) to 1 (perfect inequality) scale—moved from 0.498 in 1999 to 0.412 in 2008, a drop unparalleled in Latin America. Meanwhile, human development levels have improved consistently and considerably in the country. The UNDP’s Human Development Index (which combines measures of income, health and educational attainment also on a scale from 0 to 1, with higher levels of prosperity being closer to 1) has gone from 0.656 in 2000 to 0.735 in 2011, an increase of 1% per year. No one would guess Venezuela’s crime crisis from looking at these figures."

I don't know how accurate these figures are, but something must have motivated people to go out and vote for Chavez in such vast numbers.


Absolutely. It is clear that Chavez has done some, maybe a lot of, good in Venezuela - just that a) the vast amounts of oil money have not been spent either openly or effectively, and b) while he may not be a dictator, there is a massive concentration of power in his hands, and it doesn't appear that he always uses it wisely, or legally.

dylanfernley
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby dylanfernley » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:25 am

[quote][/quote]the old expression about socialism working until you run out of other peoples money was written for him.[quote]


So when the banks were going under, had they run out of other peoples money ??

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finchy
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby finchy » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:57 am

bompington wrote:
johnfinch wrote:
bompington wrote:Yep, another 6 years of socialist paradise.
Strikes me as a pretty poor return on all that oil money, unless of course staying in power is the only aim.


According to the article to which you linked, "income inequality has fallen dramatically in Venezuela in the recent past. The country’s Gini Coefficient—a widely used index to measure inequality by placing countries on a 0 (perfect equality) to 1 (perfect inequality) scale—moved from 0.498 in 1999 to 0.412 in 2008, a drop unparalleled in Latin America. Meanwhile, human development levels have improved consistently and considerably in the country. The UNDP’s Human Development Index (which combines measures of income, health and educational attainment also on a scale from 0 to 1, with higher levels of prosperity being closer to 1) has gone from 0.656 in 2000 to 0.735 in 2011, an increase of 1% per year. No one would guess Venezuela’s crime crisis from looking at these figures."

I don't know how accurate these figures are, but something must have motivated people to go out and vote for Chavez in such vast numbers.


Absolutely. It is clear that Chavez has done some, maybe a lot of, good in Venezuela - just that a) the vast amounts of oil money have not been spent either openly or effectively, and b) while he may not be a dictator, there is a massive concentration of power in his hands, and it doesn't appear that he always uses it wisely, or legally.


I suppose the acid test for Chavez's policies are in the long term - he has spent all this money on education and health, what will the effects be in 20-30 years? Will the Venezuelan economy be able to diversify into other hi-tech industries?

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Pross
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby Pross » Thu Oct 11, 2012 14:55 pm

dylanfernley wrote:
the old expression about socialism working until you run out of other peoples money was written for him.


So when the banks were going under, had they run out of other peoples money ??


Yes - they leant it to other people who, following Gordon Brown's example, borrowed and spent money they couldn't afford to pay back.

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markos1963
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby markos1963 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 15:38 pm

The interesting thing about Chavez's use of oil revnue is that it has been by and large for the benefit of his people, something tangible. What happened to our oil wealth? By and large paid for Thatcher to put 3+ million on the dole so she could persue her politcal ideoligy.

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MaxwellBygraves
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby MaxwellBygraves » Fri Jan 11, 2013 09:14 am

Comrade Chavez has been receiving emergency cancer treatment in Cuba. As a result he was unable to attend his own inauguration. See more here.

Here's wishing the Comandante a full and speedy recovery and a swift return to power.

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dylanfernley
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby dylanfernley » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:24 am

yep, one of the worlds good guys-- his health has taken a hit for all the stress the man must have been under , 12 years with no holidays-- the whole of the capitalist world against him and his party, but shows what can be done, imagine the difference an advanced economy could make if it were used to help people not profits........

lostboysaint
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby lostboysaint » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:26 am

dylanfernley wrote:yep, one of the worlds good guys-- his health has taken a hit for all the stress the man must have been under , 12 years with no holidays-- the whole of the capitalist world against him and his party, but shows what can be done, imagine the difference an advanced economy could make if it were used to help people not profits........


Why not just look at Canada then?
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bompington
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby bompington » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:25 am

MaxwellBygraves wrote:Comrade Chavez has been receiving emergency cancer treatment in Cuba. As a result he was unable to attend his own inauguration. See more here.

Here's wishing the Comandante a full and speedy recovery and a swift return to power.

Image

Fascinating to see how the cult of personality can extend way beyond the borders of where domination of the media makes it easier ;-)

dylanfernley
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby dylanfernley » Fri Jan 11, 2013 14:35 pm

judge him by his deeds not his words-- if you were a poor person in venezuela, i imagine you would look on things in a different way....

DesB3rd
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby DesB3rd » Fri Jan 11, 2013 15:50 pm

It boils down to your political perspective,if you lean to the left then you would be broadly in favour of chavez-- if you are in the other camp-- then you would not.


Broadly I'd second that. However I'm somewhat agnostic about his economics (in principal, a degree of ineptitude in application e.g. attempts at price controls, is fairly unarguable) - while I'm economically liberal I see the virtues of economic centralism are far more clear cut in the simple, well mapped terrain of developing economies.

Regardless of the political economics is that he has quite clearly "outgrown" the office - the legalistic authority infered by being president is moot - Chavez' own charismatic, populist power exists without & above it. I suspect he hasn't overly, & certainly not overtly, abused that situation to date but whether this is a matter of a comittment to democracy, a desire to avoid the bad press or a simple lack of need - we'll only know when a genuinely threatening opposition arises and the ballot box ceases to be a reliable means of maintaining and exercising power.

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Pinno
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby Pinno » Fri Jan 11, 2013 20:47 pm

The CIA - Inglorious basterds:

Nice section about Gehlen (ex Nazi) and his involvement with the the Americans in their too

Of course the West is going to chastise the likes of Chavez and Castro because they don't extol the virtues of 'democracy'. Which in US terms means you sell us your oil and you allow our companies to come in and take over your sh1t and then sell the sh1t back to you.
Haiti is a great example of US interference - not only did the US support Papa doc (one horrible dictator). They also pledged $350m in aid after the Haitian earthquake of which less than $22m went to the people of Haiti, the rest went to US contractors to assist in rebuilding the place. Thats democracy for you. Disasters are great for creating employment aren't they ? *
Chavez is no angel but US foreign policy has been directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and they are purveyors of the most incidious empire - obligating people into capitalism and poverty.

An eclectic shortlist of yankee interference and interferers, f*ck ups and tragedies:
Bhopal disaster (Union Carbide)
Vietnam
WTO
Monsanto - (makers of Agent Orange and Round up weedkiller, GM wheat that the 3rd world buys mistakenly because it is hybrid and yields nothing when re-seeded)
Nicaragua - Colonel North and that lot of w4nkers
Reds under the bed - J Edgar Hoover/McCarthy, which drove people like Bob Dylan and Ernest Hemmingway abroad.
Interference in Italy post WW2 with their anti-communism push that theoretically Italy has never really recovered from.
* On that note, over 1000 US contractor companies in Iraq currently...
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tiredofwhiners
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby tiredofwhiners » Fri Jan 11, 2013 21:55 pm

dylanfernley wrote:judge him by his deeds not his words--


Thats how the Greeks ended up sh*t alley - promises from the politicians, the deeds being unending cash for everyone albeit from a different source and then one day, the cash stops and everyone realises they are still living in the same corrupt dump, but that the nameplate on the town hall has changed and that nothing else has.

ben@31
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby ben@31 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 04:00 am

Anti-US Chavez + Venezuelan oil reserves = Call me cynical but I wonder how long before "the west" claims he is evil, has weapons of mass destruction or terrorist training camps and takes him out in an USA World Police airstrike a.k.a Libyairaqistan. Then send in the US contractors to repair the place / oil wells.

You're only a good guy if the USA say's you are.
Last edited by ben@31 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 14:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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markos1963
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby markos1963 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 14:22 pm

tiredofwhiners wrote:
dylanfernley wrote:judge him by his deeds not his words--


Thats how the Greeks ended up sh*t alley - promises from the politicians, the deeds being unending cash for everyone albeit from a different source and then one day, the cash stops and everyone realises they are still living in the same corrupt dump, but that the nameplate on the town hall has changed and that nothing else has.


Unfair to compare with Greece, the Greeks don't have large reserves of anything(other than Olive Oil!) and are therefore unable to earn their way out of penury.

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hipshot
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby hipshot » Sat Jan 12, 2013 15:07 pm

markos1963 wrote:The interesting thing about Chavez's use of oil revnue is that it has been by and large for the benefit of his people, something tangible. What happened to our oil wealth? By and large paid for Thatcher to put 3+ million on the dole so she could persue her politcal ideoligy.


This

Really hoping he has a speedy recovery.

tiredofwhiners
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Re: Viva Venezuela!

Postby tiredofwhiners » Sat Jan 12, 2013 19:43 pm

markos1963 wrote:Unfair to compare with Greece, the Greeks don't have large reserves of anything(other than Olive Oil!) and are therefore unable to earn their way out of penury.


Actually its a very fair comparison from the point of view of the dangers of unrestricted cash with little or no structural reform. Your point is well made, but if the money in Venezuela is simply buying votes, without modernising its economy so that votes cannot be bought as easily, then you have Greece all over again. the Greeks partied, gave themselves unaffordable benefits and jobs, spent money on creating very little, pumped up the broken public sector and destroyed the private sector. Venezuelas emphasis on creating a 'socialist paradise' where the private sector is weak and nobody wants to invest, bodes poorly for the future.

You can see the same in Argentina where the government cannot get anyone to invest in the country, and its slowly going to the dogs again for the second time under what started out as a populist government - until they had spent all the other peoples money.


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