Oscar points finger at Football

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Timoid.
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Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Timoid. » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:58 am

Perreiro hints at doping in La Primera Liga

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story ... se?cc=5739

An earlier on Bleacher Report article specifically mentioned Messi, but it's been taken down.

pat1cp
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby pat1cp » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:08 pm

I think it's pretty common knowledge that Barcelona had Messi on HGH as a teenager for "therapeutic" reasons.

Richmond Racer
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Richmond Racer » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:15 pm

Eek....

Well, this is what happens when one single sport gets the villification cycling's getting right now. Cyclists who might have some knowledge about other athletes from other sports where AD has been so negligent, start kicking back.

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Ben6899
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Ben6899 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:27 pm

Messi was - legitimately - on a growth hormone.

As for the rest of the Barcelona squad... how could I possibly comment?
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prawny
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby prawny » Tue Jan 22, 2013 13:45 pm

Ben6899 wrote:Messi was - legitimately - on a growth hormone.


Pfft, I was born with a talent deficiency, does that mean I can take banned products?
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Ben6899
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Ben6899 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 14:21 pm

prawny wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:Messi was - legitimately - on a growth hormone.


Pfft, I was born with a talent deficiency, does that mean I can take banned products?


I'm not saying it was morally 'right', just that it was all above board.
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dougzz
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby dougzz » Tue Jan 22, 2013 14:30 pm

Dick Pound "Ahhh yes, the peloton full of brave asthmatics riding at the Tour - it's not just in cycling either "
TUE is not really 'above board' either.

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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby sherer » Tue Jan 22, 2013 20:34 pm

when Puerto happened it was linked to football to but that quickly went away. We've heard the same doping doctors used in cycling be linked to football clubs and it's nieve to think only one sport has a problem. At least cycling tries to catch the cheats unlike football and tennis that pretend the problem doesn't exist

samb01
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby samb01 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 20:59 pm

pat1cp wrote:I think it's pretty common knowledge that Barcelona had Messi on HGH as a teenager for "therapeutic" reasons.

What a way to phrase it. Barcelona paid for his treatment. He was diagnosed in Argentina, the family couldn't afford the treatment nor find an Argentinian team willing to pay for it.

But yeah. the 'morally right' thing of course would have been for Messi to remain a dwarf. It's so unfair!

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Cornerblock
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Cornerblock » Tue Jan 22, 2013 21:02 pm

I can categorically say that Fernando Torres is not on PED's. Certainly not for the past two years anyway.

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Rick Chasey
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Rick Chasey » Tue Jan 22, 2013 23:48 pm

The difference is I seriously doubt you see any league two teams doping in any meaningful way whatsoever.

Cycling teams in the 90s and 2000s however...

dougzz
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby dougzz » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:34 am

samb01 wrote:
pat1cp wrote:I think it's pretty common knowledge that Barcelona had Messi on HGH as a teenager for "therapeutic" reasons.

What a way to phrase it. Barcelona paid for his treatment. He was diagnosed in Argentina, the family couldn't afford the treatment nor find an Argentinian team willing to pay for it.
But yeah. the 'morally right' thing of course would have been for Messi to remain a dwarf. It's so unfair!

Where do you draw the line though. Just a bit of devil's advocate here. You're born and you are what you are. Why is it OK for Messi to use HGH (assuming he did) when this improves him as a footballer amongst other things, but it's not OK to use a EPO/blood doping regime to improve as a sportsman. At what point does a TUE excuse become just that, an excuse. It's not hard to find a moody doctor is it.
In a smaller more cycling specific way why is a cream to help with a saddle sore OK if a doctor says so, but not a medical process to help with tired legs. It's all very confusing.

Tom Butcher
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Tom Butcher » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:47 am

Just for interest Maradona also took HGH as a teenager for the same reasons as Messi - ie legally and above board.
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby fidgetyphil » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:52 am

Tom Butcher wrote:Just for interest Maradona also took HGH as a teenager for the same reasons as Messi - ie legally and above board.


Just out of interest, what was the reason?

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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby KieranHardman » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:03 am

The only reason Messi's seems acceptable is that he was given stuff to enable him to grow a little more to average height as a kid. If it was paid for by Barcelona there is no difference between this and some basketball team paying for a kid to grow to 7' instead of 6' because he is naturally talented.

However Messi had a stunted development as a kid and fell below the usual size distribution for kids his age. Even if he showed no talent in sport he would have been put on the same stuff had he had the funds. Whereas the basketball kid would not be given those same drugs.

Surely the TUE is reviewed by the medical department of the governing body? Not just accepted at face value, so it doesnt matter what dodgy doctor you go to.

samb01
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby samb01 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:36 am

dougzz wrote:Where do you draw the line though. Just a bit of devil's advocate here. You're born and you are what you are. Why is it OK for Messi to use HGH (assuming he did) when this improves him as a footballer amongst other things, but it's not OK to use a EPO/blood doping regime to improve as a sportsman. At what point does a TUE excuse become just that, an excuse. It's not hard to find a moody doctor is it.
In a smaller more cycling specific way why is a cream to help with a saddle sore OK if a doctor says so, but not a medical process to help with tired legs. It's all very confusing.

"Where do you draw the line"?? Should we draw the line at giving a *child* normal medical treatment? The treatment consisted of making up for his bodies deficiency in producing growth hormones, and as far as we know, and there is no reason to assume otherwise, what he was given was simply making up the difference wrt what the avg. kid produce naturally.

Yes, it gave him a sporting advantage. It made him normal sized.

samb01
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby samb01 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:46 am

KieranHardman wrote:The only reason Messi's seems acceptable is that he was given stuff to enable him to grow a little more to average height as a kid. If it was paid for by Barcelona there is no difference between this and some basketball team paying for a kid to grow to 7' instead of 6' because he is naturally talented.

In Norway we tend to do the opposite. Children who are 'in danger' of becoming too tall (I would guess around 1.95+ m for men, 1.85+ m for women) are given the option of getting growth-inhibiting hormones. Not an uncommon treatment.

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Pross
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Pross » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:04 pm

Is HGH even that much of a benefit in a footballer? Maybe in a big, powerful central defender or striker but a player like Messi is all about skill so not really much help there or does it alos improve attributes like speed? Given the amount of steroid use in low level amateur rugby I wouldn't be at all surprised to see HGH being used systematically at the highest levels. Teams going off to use the cryo chamber in Poland sets alarm bells ringing for me. Whilst the increase in size and speed is no doubt in part down to the professional era and players doing daily speed and weight training sessions the increase in size of backs (in particular) is huge. Whilst Jonah Lomu would still be bigger than most today he was considered a 'freak' by Carling at the time and there are now many players who are getting close to him in terms of size whilst maintaining their speed. No doubt some are just naturally built that way but it is starting to become the norm. I hope I'm wrong on this but the cynicism of years watching cycling make me fear I might not be.

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Ben6899
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby Ben6899 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:10 pm

Pross wrote:Is HGH even that much of a benefit in a footballer? Maybe in a big, powerful central defender or striker but a player like Messi is all about skill so not really much help there or does it alos improve attributes like speed?


You can have all the skill and speed in the world, but if you lack physical strength (he would have been considerably weaker than the average, but for the HGH) then you won't make much of a footballer.
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chrisday
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Re: Oscar points finger at Football

Postby chrisday » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:17 pm

The old footie adage still holds true - "A good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un"...


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