Stepping up to the next level.

When drugs don't work: training and health tips!
matt-h
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Stepping up to the next level.

Postby matt-h » Thu Jan 24, 2013 09:28 am

Hi all,

i am looking to improve the effectiveness of my training.

I can cycle 100 mile sportives with an average speed of 15 mph but want to increase my ave speed.
I have a Focus Cayo 2011 LTD with upgraded wheels (ambrosio rims and 105 hubs) and was thinking of purchasing the Raleigh 200 from Wiggle (£390 C2W Scheme) to use as my winter bike.

The reason for this is my wife kindly bought me a Garmin 800 for Xmas and an Elite Crono Turbo Trainer for B'day.
I was thinking of keeping the Focus on the Turbo over the next couple of months and using the Raleigh for outdoor winter goodness - then swap them over in the summer.

A friend recommended we have a Retul bike fit and VO2 max assessment to really maximise our training, the problem is a cannot afford both.

What would you guys recommend?

I'm quite keen on a winter bike as it means i do not have to change wheels/tyres or clean my bike up from winter muck everytime i want to use the trainer. it will also keep the Focus in good condition.
Also, being time restricted it would add time to a quick 1-2hr turbo session.

Thoughts?

Matt

ut_och_cykla
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby ut_och_cykla » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:05 am

My thoughts. Do as you suggest - winter bike for iutdoors , nice bike on Turbo. Physiological testing to dial in what you should be doing on the turbo. While you're riding (turbo or outdoors) make sure position is comfy and if it isn't ask local bike shop to help you in the first instance. Unless you already have serious fit issues a Retul bike fit might be overkill but a good test adn follow up information about what to target trainingwise will be of great help

matt-h
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby matt-h » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:18 am

Thanks ut,
I am quite happy with my positioning/comfort but didnt know if it was important to get that out of the way before attacking the training.

Any ideas on how much a physiological test may cost?

Matt

Tom Dean
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Tom Dean » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:25 am

You don't need to use a special tyre on the turbo, or clean your bike every time you use it. The Raleigh is cheap but you will need mudguards and decent tyres straight away. The wheels will probably be awful. Also it's 9 speed so you can't switch parts from your Focus. Waste of money IMO, put mudguards and strong tyres on the Focus.

A bike fit is never a bad idea but can be expensive if you don't have a specific problem you need to fix.

VO2 max testing: what are you going to do with the results?

Ric/RSTSport
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:31 am

A physiological test in a lab, is, pretty much overkill and a waste of time. If you want to know some data about yourself, there are, potentially, much better ways to go about this. Some field testing with a power meter will tell you more - by doing a TT and a MAP test (sort of similar to a VO2max test, but without measuring the expired respiratory gases).

KNowing your VO2max (e.g. 60 mL/kg/min) won't really help you focus in on your training. You're better off doing a MAP test (and finding out your best 60-sec power during the test and potentially your HR max). The 60-sec power show's your cardiovascular fitness and the size of your engine. At RST Sport we also use this number to calculate your training zones if you have a power meter. For those that don't we'd use HR max. By doing some TT you'll also work out your fitness.

I don't know much about Retul. The majority of elite level athletes i've worked with have never used one (nor have i), and most of the regular athletes i work with have never used it. You can certainly be fitted correctly and aerodynamically to your bike without such a tool, and indeed we do it that way here and at our sister company Aero-Coach. You need to think of Retul as a very accurate tape measure -- the skill lies with the operator using it, rather than the equipment itself.

Self-promotion: to increase your fitness you need to have optimal training. This is best provided via coaching, or via Training Plans, both of which we offer (http://www.rstsport.com).

Ric
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cyco2
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby cyco2 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:34 am

matt-h wrote:A friend recommended we have a Retul bike fit and VO2 max assessment to really maximise our training, the problem is a cannot afford both.



There are many ways to 'calculate' vo2 max. but they cannot possibly take the place of a dynamic test. However, to keep a check on your 'improvement' all you need do is record your resting heart rate. It's a simple method but allows you to using the same calculation to reproduce the test. The problem with the dynamic test is can you afford to have another one to see any improvement.
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Ric/RSTSport
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:36 am

How on earth does resting heart rate equate to improvement?
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Alex_Simmons/RST
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Alex_Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:40 am

I would suggest a bike fit from a quality bike fitter (I don't think retul is specifically necessary) is a good idea for all relatively serious cyclists, and can certainly ensure problems don't emerge later on. But if you've been going OK so far, then you might be fine to continue on.

VO2 testing is largely unnecessary and probably fairly expensive, and in any case it will more than likely just give you some HR (and/or power) intensity ranges that can be readily determined by self testing and probably not a lot else.

What matters is knowing what and how much training to do, and how to keep it interesting and stay motivated to ride/train.

You can test your own performance progress with a power test of some kind using someone's power meter or ergometer, but if that's not feasible a proxy for power such as time up a hillclimb, and in some cases the wheel speed on a turbo can also be a proxy power measure (but that depends on a few things and is subject to error). Intensity levels can be set with heart rate measurement from such a test.

Perhaps get a good training plan from a coach. Certainly a lot less costly than a VO2 test and likely to be far more effective. We have some good ones if interested and there are other coaches that do plans as well.

okgo
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby okgo » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:34 am

cyco2 wrote:
matt-h wrote:A friend recommended we have a Retul bike fit and VO2 max assessment to really maximise our training, the problem is a cannot afford both.



There are many ways to 'calculate' vo2 max. but they cannot possibly take the place of a dynamic test. However, to keep a check on your 'improvement' all you need do is record your resting heart rate. It's a simple method but allows you to using the same calculation to reproduce the test. The problem with the dynamic test is can you afford to have another one to see any improvement.


If memory serves this isn't the first time you've spouted utter rubbish like that?
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maryka
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby maryka » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:48 pm

Best investment you can make having a Garmin and a turbo imo (I've already said this once today on another thread!) is a speed/cadence sensor so you can approximate your power and use that to improve. TrainerRoad is quite popular, for $10/month you get to use their software and also their workouts.

As for the turbo and winter bike thing. don't waste your money on a new 9-speed bike, you're better off picking up something cheap secondhand with 10-speed so you can at least transfer wheels between bikes. Alternatively, use the Focus year-round and just get a second rear wheel for the turbo with a turbo tire mounted on it. Don't need a "real" turbo tire but a heavy cheap tire works best -- decent road tires heat up too much to be useful on a turbo in my experience.

As for fitting, unless you feel like you don't fit your bike well or have problems riding it outdoors (cornering, descending, etc.) then I wouldn't bother. Any testing you do can be done on the turbo (TrainerRoad has their own to determine your threshold power), as long as you retest under the same circumstances you'll be able to measure your improvement.

matt-h
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby matt-h » Thu Jan 24, 2013 14:09 pm

Many thanks for the replies.

AS usual lots of different opnions to digest 8) 8)

So the consensus is that the bike fitting is not required, nor really the physiology test.
Im not at a level where i think coaching is a must that i have to pay out monthly.
My Garmin does have the Speed/cadence sensor and HRM.

Bit unsure about the 2nd bike though. i dont want to abuse the Focus through Winter. I have looked about and have yet to find a real bargain 2nd hand, not to mention that it will be C2W so no massive outlay but monthly payments - can also chuck a bit of clothing in for effectively interest free :)

I do not want the hassle of changing wheels/tyres over all the time - motivating after work to sit on a trainer is going to be tough enough i reckon

Matt
Last edited by matt-h on Thu Jan 24, 2013 14:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tom Dean
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Tom Dean » Thu Jan 24, 2013 14:23 pm

It takes about 20 seconds to change a wheel.

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ShutUpLegs
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby ShutUpLegs » Thu Jan 24, 2013 15:54 pm

Tom Dean wrote:It takes about 20 seconds to change a wheel.


Thats another level all together
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maryka
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby maryka » Thu Jan 24, 2013 18:48 pm

matt-h wrote:Bit unsure about the 2nd bike though. i dont want to abuse the Focus through Winter. I have looked about and have yet to find a real bargain 2nd hand, not to mention that it will be C2W so no massive outlay but monthly payments - can also chuck a bit of clothing in for effectively interest free :)

I do not want the hassle of changing wheels/tyres over all the time - motivating after work to sit on a trainer is going to be tough enough i reckon

Matt

Nothing wrong with having two bikes and I can attest that having one of them permanently set up on the trainer more or less ready to go is quite motivating.

If you can stretch a bit more on C2W then 10-speed is really the way to go. Any last year's models out there you could get at a good discount instead?

Ric/RSTSport
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Thu Jan 24, 2013 18:54 pm

matt-h wrote:Im not at a level where i think coaching is a must that i have to pay out monthly.
Matt


Not that i was suggesting you should go the coaching route (i was thinking more in vein of a Training Plan), but i'm curious as to why you think you could (have?) needed physiological testing and high end bike fitting, but not coaching. Out of those the Training Plans (that we sell) are going to be significantly less expensive than either testing or Retul.

Ric
Coach to Michael Freiberg - Track World Champion (Omnium) 2011
Coach to Jeff Jones - 2011 BBAR winner and 12-hour record
Check out our new website www.rstsport.com

matt-h
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby matt-h » Thu Jan 24, 2013 21:11 pm

Ric/RSTSport wrote:
matt-h wrote:Im not at a level where i think coaching is a must that i have to pay out monthly.
Matt


Not that i was suggesting you should go the coaching route (i was thinking more in vein of a Training Plan), but i'm curious as to why you think you could (have?) needed physiological testing and high end bike fitting, but not coaching. Out of those the Training Plans (that we sell) are going to be significantly less expensive than either testing or Retul.

Ric


Hi Ric,

It was a friend that recommend the fit and V02 max testing, hence my post on here for opinions.

Matt

Ric/RSTSport
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Thu Jan 24, 2013 21:24 pm

thanks. feel free to have a look at our Plans. we have plans that are Sportive specific (so are designed for people like yourself). http://www.rstsport.com/?event=training ... an=compare - they're a bargain at approximately £65 (approximately as they're priced in Aussie Dollars).

cheers
ric
Coach to Michael Freiberg - Track World Champion (Omnium) 2011
Coach to Jeff Jones - 2011 BBAR winner and 12-hour record
Check out our new website www.rstsport.com

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amnesia
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby amnesia » Thu Jan 24, 2013 21:44 pm

You may find that the sports department at your local Uni will do a VO2 test for research purposes plus beer tokens...
2013 Focus Izalco Pro 2.0 UDi2
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Ric/RSTSport
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby Ric/RSTSport » Thu Jan 24, 2013 21:54 pm

that's definitely true. but you can't always guarantee you'll get any good advice. additionally, as mentioned before i'm not sure there's much/any benefit to doing such testing for the purpose of *coaching* (i say that with my sports science hat on).
Coach to Michael Freiberg - Track World Champion (Omnium) 2011
Coach to Jeff Jones - 2011 BBAR winner and 12-hour record
Check out our new website www.rstsport.com

maryka
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Re: Stepping up to the next level.

Postby maryka » Thu Jan 24, 2013 22:13 pm

Ric/RSTSport wrote:that's definitely true. but you can't always guarantee you'll get any good advice. additionally, as mentioned before i'm not sure there's much/any benefit to doing such testing for the purpose of *coaching* (i say that with my sports science hat on).

Ric do you always troll for customers on here? Three posts now, it's a bit over the top. You've got your sigfile, no need to bleat on about your training plans and prices and cast doubt on all other options for the OP. It's an internet forum not an advertising space.


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